Thread: Monstro & Gemini in Low Light

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  1. #11  
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    Depends on your taste in degree of noise and if you don't mind some de-noise in post. Bjorn is spot on, don't expect to lift shadows / put a heavy grade on your image once you get into the 3200 and beyond range without some sacrifice in IQ. No personal experience with Monstro but Gemini is very usable at 6400 compared to my experience with dragon or helium which would be unusable but there will be noise obviously which for me has looked surprisingly filmic on the Gemini. I have tested LL6400 specifically for a candle lit scene and it turned out okay after de-noise in post where it would have not been possible with other sensors in my opinion. We had a scarlet-w as b-cam on that shoot and it was unusable.
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  2. #12  
    Senior Member AndreasOberg's Avatar
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    Gemini 6400 is pretty similar to Monstro 3200, but of course you have less resolution.
    Personally I would say Gemini 6400 and Monstro 3200 is usable, but borderline, even with heavy noise reduction.
    I also depends on the topic, if there are many dark elements in the image like trees there will be so little light in those areas so then the noise goes up a lot, however if you are filming mainly brighter areas like sky then they will have much less noise.
    This is a very rough guideline in my head, I use higher numbers than these, but then I know there will be noise.
    Helium. ISO 1000. I use up to 1600 once in a while and in emergencies 2000, but not more.
    Monstro 2000
    Gemini 4000
    Take it with a bit of grain of salt. I only film with Helium, but have tested Monstro and Gemini specifically for noise in dark situations. Bjorn has more experience.
    I would recommend the low light OLPF, they give you 1/3 stop extra. It is only the highlight OLPF that has more advanced filtering that improves glare, the standard does not so does not add that many benefits vs lowlight OLPF.
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  3. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by steve green View Post
    Heading out on a job in the snow with lots of magic hour and beyond scenes. Firelight, dim skys, moody dining, We have both Monstros and Gemini's on board.....Wondering if Monstro at 8K, 3200 is similar to Gemini at 3200. Or should I switch to Low light OLPH in order to shoot with the Monstro at that iso. I've shot Monstro at 1600 with no issues in the past, just want to know if folks are comfortable going 3200 with the Standard OLPH.
    It depends on your personal tolerance of lost detail and mush coming from UHD+ cameras and where the material is heading.

    Generally speaking, I wouldn't go past 3200 on LL mode on Gemini and 1600 on Monstro. And past that I'd flag them in QC for broadcast and cinema purpose.


    ...


    Btw

    Denoise doesn't bring back the detail which wasn't captured, remove the effects of compression on top of noise, nor bring back lost bits from two stops under nor fix tonal offsets from stretched image data.

    So no, that won't save you from a messed up image and you are effectively throwing away spatial resolution from that UHD+ camera and tonal resolution from that 16bit capture with additional bonus prize of messed up texture.


    Also, depends on low light type, natural light gives superior results.
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  4. #14  
    Senior Member steve green's Avatar
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    Just back from my shoot in Canada......We never shot the Gemini or the Monstro above 3200 iso. But I have to say the footage at that high iso was impressive. Very usable, not to much noise even in the dark night sky. It's a great tool to have in the kit to be able to shoot that iso with confidence. Thanks everyone for the suggestions!
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  5. #15  
    Member David Jean Schweitzer's Avatar
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    Great detailed thread, I love how informative it is.
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  6. #16  
    In my experience, in a 4k timeline, the Monstro is another beast.
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  7. #17  
    Senior Member Mark A. Jaeger's Avatar
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    Bjorn,
    Over the last 11 months with Monstro I have shot many scenes that go from daylight, through twilight to darkness (darkness= ~1 hour past sunset). I have seen no contradiction to the principle that ISO is metadata and has no influence on the raw data - ISO only affects the interpretation/display of the data.
    Most of the time I shoot at ISO800. I "chase" the light as it falls off by adjusting ND and aperture while watching the GIO scope and the goal posts. My observation is that it is critical to keep the left goal post free of redness if you want to avoid noise. At some point, even with no ND and fast lens I have no more adjustment and I run out of light. The left goal post fills with red and noise severely increases. Adding light would be the only way to keep going but that isn't practical for big landscape scenes (like mountains and canyons).
    I've tried ISO1600, 3200 and 6400 with the result that noise is easy to find in low light as ISO goes up. In my opinion if one needs 6400ISO to see the subject, you'll see noise too.
    Do you agree? Am I missing something?
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  8. #18  
    Senior Member Scot Yount's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark A. Jaeger View Post
    Bjorn,
    Over the last 11 months with Monstro I have shot many scenes that go from daylight, through twilight to darkness (darkness= ~1 hour past sunset). I have seen no contradiction to the principle that ISO is metadata and has no influence on the raw data - ISO only affects the interpretation/display of the data.
    Most of the time I shoot at ISO800. I "chase" the light as it falls off by adjusting ND and aperture while watching the GIO scope and the goal posts. My observation is that it is critical to keep the left goal post free of redness if you want to avoid noise. At some point, even with no ND and fast lens I have no more adjustment and I run out of light. The left goal post fills with red and noise severely increases. Adding light would be the only way to keep going but that isn't practical for big landscape scenes (like mountains and canyons).
    I've tried ISO1600, 3200 and 6400 with the result that noise is easy to find in low light as ISO goes up. In my opinion if one needs 6400ISO to see the subject, you'll see noise too.
    Do you agree? Am I missing something?
    I would love to hear the answer to this.
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  9. #19  
    Junior Member Tony Aaron II's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrvoje Simic View Post
    It depends on your personal tolerance of lost detail and mush coming from UHD+ cameras and where the material is heading.

    Generally speaking, I wouldn't go past 3200 on LL mode on Gemini and 1600 on Monstro. And past that I'd flag them in QC for broadcast and cinema purpose.


    ...


    Btw

    Denoise doesn't bring back the detail which wasn't captured, remove the effects of compression on top of noise, nor bring back lost bits from two stops under nor fix tonal offsets from stretched image data.

    So no, that won't save you from a messed up image and you are effectively throwing away spatial resolution from that UHD+ camera and tonal resolution from that 16bit capture with additional bonus prize of messed up texture.


    Also, depends on low light type, natural light gives superior results.

    Good response.
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  10. #20  
    Junior Member Tony Aaron II's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark A. Jaeger View Post
    Bjorn,
    Over the last 11 months with Monstro I have shot many scenes that go from daylight, through twilight to darkness (darkness= ~1 hour past sunset). I have seen no contradiction to the principle that ISO is metadata and has no influence on the raw data - ISO only affects the interpretation/display of the data.
    Most of the time I shoot at ISO800. I "chase" the light as it falls off by adjusting ND and aperture while watching the GIO scope and the goal posts. My observation is that it is critical to keep the left goal post free of redness if you want to avoid noise. At some point, even with no ND and fast lens I have no more adjustment and I run out of light. The left goal post fills with red and noise severely increases. Adding light would be the only way to keep going but that isn't practical for big landscape scenes (like mountains and canyons).
    I've tried ISO1600, 3200 and 6400 with the result that noise is easy to find in low light as ISO goes up. In my opinion if one needs 6400ISO to see the subject, you'll see noise too.
    Do you agree? Am I missing something?

    What you're describing is the way ISO is supposed to work. Prioritization of the left goal post should be your primary concern. There's also been mention of color temperature in this thread. Again, none of that matters unless the temperature is off and a channel is underexposing on the left goal post. Your theory on exposure and it being the dictator of noise rather than ISO is correct.

    ISO's importance is related to how the sensor's light sensitivity is spread out. The lower the ISO the more RED's sensor sensitivity sits below middle exposure. Therefor, the way to achieve the best low-light footage is recording at the lowest ISO with the best left goal post exposure.
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