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  1. #1 Cineform as a Tiered Partner 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jannard
    For a long time now, we have talked about ongoing development with regard to R3D support. As all of you know, we have been working very closely with Apple and ASSIMILATE from very early on to develop consistent workflows.

    As part of expanding our workflows and our partner base, we are creating a tiered partner program that will roll out in full this year. This program will be how other companies can access R3D as is appropriate for them and for us. The first step is establishing RED Lead Development Partners. Apple and ASSIMLATE are the first and currently the only companies here. We have always said we will open up R3D to other partners, and we will. But we are going to do it right.

    Initially, we planned to open R3D around NAB this year. But there are so many upcoming R3D improvements and changes that we need more time. The delay of Build 15, and the subsequent split of the image enhancements into Build 16 have set us back. We can't afford to miss anything, and we need to make sure everything is thoroughly tested throughout the image chain. We also have to insure backwards compatibility with all our apps. I know this delay will be disappointing to some, but it’ll be worth the wait. We are working hard to catch up and open up our community to partners that can deliver bulletproof workflows. To release too early would be catastrophic to all our customers.
    I am a little dismayed that the Tiered Partner thread was closed so quickly. You were getting an honest response from your userbase.

    Why would it be so difficult to add Cineform as a current tiered partner??????

    Quote Originally Posted by jbeale
    We have one case study so far: the Cineform R3D2DPX solution. It was posted Jan. 16 2008: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthr...517#post138517

    Later that day, Graeme pointed out the image quality shortcomings with the third-party debayer, complete with still frame examples. http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpos...0&postcount=23 ...after seeing that comparison, many redusers spoke up and said R3D2DPX was poor quality, and they would not use it.

    The following day, 1/17 David responded with an updated R3D2DPX version http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpos...4&postcount=86
    complete with other still frame examples. I'm not going to comment myself on what those still frame examples showed but look at them yourself, if you like.

    At that point, Jim objected to the existence of R3D2DPX and there were quite a few rather emotional posts. The following day, 1/18, R3D2DPX was withdrawn, and the thread was closed. So ended that short chapter in RED history. What can we learn from it?

    Probably lots of things, but the one I'd like to highlight is that development of useful tools can proceed very rapidly, if given the chance.
    They clearly need very little Red resources, as they have been doing this for a long time. I don't see the issue with adding them unless this has to do with agreements with Apple and Assimilate. In that case...
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  2. #2  
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    If anyone is going to give us good PC workflow it's going to be Cineform for sure! In my opinion it would be more of an asset for RED to work with Cineform than Assimilate....
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    Red Leader Jannard's Avatar
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    We fully expect Cineform to have the SDK when we are ready.

    Jim
    "The camera is arguably one of the most important of all inventions… it is the single tool that has the ability to stop time, record history, generate art, tell stories, and communicate messages that transcend language like nothing else ever conceived."

    "Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..."

    We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone with a bad attitude.
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  4. #4  
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    It is quite clear that they do not need your SDK at all. What gives?????
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  5. #5  
    Senior Member Brent J. Craig's Avatar
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    Closing threads smacks of censorship.

    Although some people weren't using their best manners, I think they assumed it was valuable for Red to hear from their customers whether it be glowing praise or the seeds of discontent. Did I miss the announcement about a 'praise only' policy?
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  6. #6 Censorship? 
    Senior Member Blair S. Paulsen's Avatar
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    Discussion of the manner in which RED chooses to do business with 3rd parties may be rollicking good fun - BUT - hosting such discussions on RedUser is a lot to ask. Issues about the camera itself, RA, RC, etc - even those that are less than positive, may have rankled some of the principles at RED but in general they have been tolerated on RedUser.

    I don't think its fair to play the censorship card on this one.

    Peace - Blair
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  7. #7  
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    Yeah, these guys don't censor much. And they have the right to do whatever they want here. Forums aren't a democracy. I can empathize with their situation. I'm willing to cut 'em some slack.
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  8. #8  
    Senior Member Emery Wells's Avatar
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    Guys, this is how SDKs work. RED wants to have a stable platform before opening it up and they clearly have many changes in the works. You will get better third party support with a stable and solid SDK from RED VS a hack. I think we ought to remember that this is also their baby. They want to do it right and they want it to be ready before others start tinkering. Not only that but they have been completely transparent about their business relationships with Apple and Assimilate. I don't think a lot of companies were jumping at the chance to work with them a few years ago.

    If they wanted to stay a closed system forever Id be upset too but in the meantime, lets let them focus on building and stabilizing a great camera.
    Emery Wells @emerywells
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  9. #9  
    As someone who has moderated several forums over the years, there is one thing I hate more than almost anything else that users can complain about... Censorship. I didn't close the thread in question, I think Deanan did, but that doesn't matter... I'm still offended when people start playing the censorship card. None of this discussion has been censored. That thread was closed because it was getting out of hand, I don't think anyone could deny that. I know people are starving for a solid post workflow -- especially the Windows crowd. But RED just isn't ready with their tools. I'm as anxious as anyone for a solid post solution that is affordable and PC or Mac doesn't matter to me. But I'm also a software developer myself and I respect RED's decision to want their tool set and SDK to be at a certain level before releasing it.

    I think many people read too much between the lines in Jim's post. He was announcing a delay. A delay that, if it were related to camera hardware or a firmware build, everyone would have given him and the RED team the usual virtual pat on the back. He made a brief attempt at mentioning tiered development plans... IMO, it sounds very promising. This is stuff that is COMPLETELY UNHEARD OF in this industry!

    Like I said, I'm desperate for a better post workflow situation. It's unfortunate that over 1000 serial numbers have come up (who knows how many of those RED has actually shipped) and the workflow still has the camera hog-tied to a lackluster, largely incomplete and buggy workflow on the Mac or a very expensive and still buggy workflow on Windows via SCRATCH.

    But on the flip side of things, anyone who has the camera knew about this going into it. If they didn't, then they weren't paying attention. I'm still shocked that people will spend $20K or more on a camera, but become completely tight-assed and bull-headed when it comes to setting themselves up with a usable workflow. Just like every other aspect of RED camera development, the software side has obviously had its share of set-backs. I have no doubt that these issues will work themselves out in time and more workflow solutions will present themselves. RED says they are working to support Avid, Adobe and others. They have said since the beginning (well, since NAB '07) that the Apple workflow will come first. No secret there. They have never promised when it will be fully functional. The state of the workflow has never been a secret... I have to wonder why people who are deadlocked by the current workflow feel they have to be. And if they truly are due to budget or political constraints, then why did they buy their camera now instead of waiting for the proper workflow solution to materialize?

    Rant over..
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  #10  
    Red Leader Jannard's Avatar
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    We had a call today from a user wanting to know why the Cineform "R3D tool" doesn't work with Build 15 footage. This is exactly why we don't want "tools" out before we are done. This seems pretty easy to understand.

    Jim
    "The camera is arguably one of the most important of all inventions… it is the single tool that has the ability to stop time, record history, generate art, tell stories, and communicate messages that transcend language like nothing else ever conceived."

    "Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..."

    We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone with a bad attitude.
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