4K DI options

[Mark L. Pederson]

Nonsense!

As we know for the last 10 years that QT has an open software architecture

AND ACCORDING TO THAT IS POSSIBLE TO INCOPORATE R3D CODEC TO QUICKTIME.

It's just a matter of RED and Apple how and when can do it.

We just have to ask Frank Casanova, Apple's director of QuickTime product marketing more about that.

You are still talking about EXTRACTING r3ds INTO and/or THROUGH QT.

Would you like to discuss how well FCP handles QT architecture?

Don't get me started ....

[Sanjin Jukic]

Would you like to discuss how well FCP handles QT architecture?

Mark,

now from this notion somebody could conclude that Apple did not

make well implementation of QT in FCP or even that QT is

totally wrong digital media platform

and for years they (Apple) bluffed thousands of FCP user base and more.

I think something is wrong here.

Apple, Quicktime or Off...

[laguun]

Exemplary for the worldwide 4K DI marketleaders are:

filmlights baselight.
http://www.filmlight.ltd.uk/

dvs clipster
http://www.dvs.de/

Pricing for these systems starts at 50-75 at dvs, ~100 at filmlight. For a lightspeed 4K setup one might want to throw in even more hardware.

The main differences to software basing DI systems using Nvidia (or rarer, ATI) graphics cards, as iridas speedgrade, apple color, assimilate scratch etc are:

- realtime 4K processing with FX as blurs and conform tools as dissolves etc
- 4K display in order to see what you are doing
- 4K i/o, typically via quad DL-HD-SDI
- dedicated hardware (i.e. clipster) or clustered computers (i.e. baselight).

while i agree that we will see mainly 1080/2K masters in 2008, i can only warn out of experiences to master at 4k without 4k monitoring/QA.

While 35mm filmout will be hiding many issues of a 2K for 4K master, in a digital 4K projection you will see lots of details you missed in a 2K DI for a 4K Master, logically, as you only see 25% of the resolution on 2K the master/source have.

Especially noise can be very hard or even impossible to spot on a 2K display when its at fine 4K, but i will be -noticeable- if screened by a 4K projector (or used at a tradeshow to feed several 1080p displays etc).

[laguun]

Mark,

now from this notion somebody could conclude that Apple did not

make well implementation of QT in FCP or even that QT is

totally wrong digital media platform

and for years they (Apple) bluffed thousands of FCP user base and more.

I think something is wrong here.

Apple, Quicktime or Off...

Marc is correct, Quicktime has -many- well known issues since -many- years.

Mainly these are painful for professional users, as the notorious crossplatform gammaissues etc.

[laguun]

I think we would all love to have a real time 4K pipeline for DI and if you have enough money you can do that today. What if you want to do it at a realistic price? Somewhere north of shoestring indie territory but south of a heavy iron post facility.

4K realtime DI systems isnt much different in price than i.e. scratch, dvs is somewhat surprising inexpensive.
4k -dci- compliant displays are still much to expensive, but if you grab one of the classic 3840x2400 pix lcds (they use to flow on ebay at ~1000-3000) you have a pretty good sharpness check
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_T220/T221_LCD_monitors
they are quite angle dependent and not to fast however.

Would there be enough market for someone like AJA to build such an accelerator card? What is the quantity/price break between FPGAs and dedicated silicon? What kind of CPU/GPU horsepower and bus interface would be required to decode on the fly without an special purpose accelerator?

this is above aja or decklink in 2008 - dvs (and others) fill that niche sucessfully since over 20 years. they were doing 1080p/2K when the other were pal/ntsc, now they are doing 4K while the others are doing 1080p/2K.

besides the approach dvs has (dedictaed multistream 4K with colorcorrection, fx, transparency etc), others, as filmlight, used clustered computers instead of a single one.

Whats nice about these systems is that they also allow fully realtime 4K networked storage, excellent if you want to attach some VFX / CGI / graphics systems in the background.

However, so far they were all not allowed to use redcode by red.
In the case of dvs they seem to integrate it since mid 2007, and once red opens the redcode codec at NAB 2008, i suppose they will offer r3dcode support rather soon.

4K RT -debayering- however seems not to be on the very very near horizon. Speaking with -the- DI raw pioneer, iridas, at IBC 07, they said that -maximum quality- 4k debayer with software/gpu basing systems in 2008 might be pretty narrow, and after supporting raw for the s:i 2k, vision phantom 65, cineform neo, arri D20 etc about the time red came to the market, i suppose they know quite a bit about raw.

[Sanjin Jukic]

MATRIX from Chrome Imaging, Geneva, Switzerland is coming up today

as the most affordable high-performance post-production solution with

a range of turnkey systems starting from DI, 2K to 4K.

MORE>>>

[Mark L. Pederson]

I've tested Color with my Nividia 5600fx and it is very fast. RT 1080p up to 30 fps. I am not a IT person but the 5600fx is a new dimension in this regard, IMHO.

Hans

Hey Hans -

I am impressed!

Can you tell me how fast 1080p ProRes with ONE primary grade and TWO secondaries?

Uncompressed 1080p with ONE primary grade and TWO secondaries?

Thanks on advance!

[Mark L. Pederson]

and for years they (Apple) bluffed thousands of FCP user base and more.

I think something is wrong here.

Apple, Quicktime or Off...

LOL!!

No, they just "buffed" the high-end PRO users because we are a NICHE MARKET.

We joke at Offhollywood all the time that they should call change the name Pro Apps to Semi-Pro APPS or Sorta-Pro Apps.

[laguun]

LOL!!

We joke at Offhollywood all the time that they should call change the name Pro Apps to Semi-Pro APPS or Sorta-Pro Apps.

QT is nicknamed by several VFX guys here gammagamble and slowtime.

[Lucas Wilson]

4K realtime DI systems isnt much different in price than i.e. scratch, dvs is somewhat surprising inexpensive.

A Clipster at its *base* configuration is not much more expensive than SCRATCH. But it is still more expensive. But if you want the realtime 4K configuration - that is *much* more expensive. If you want multistream 4K, that is exponentially more expensive because you have to own not one, but two Cine4K servers.

Laguun, could you please explain how you can do multistream 4K off one Clipster? Since a Clipster can only connect to one Cine4K server at a time, and one server is only capable of one stream, how is this possible? Even the DVS website claims "up to 4K." with no mention of multistream.

Don't misunderstand me. I think Clipster is a great box, and I have a lot of respect for the LA team - but I think you are overstating their capabilities and I know you are understating their price. :)

A Baselight8 is the only Filmlight product capable of realtime4K. They start at over US$500K.

4k -dci- compliant displays are still much to expensive, but if you grab one of the classic 3840x2400 pix lcds (they use to flow on ebay at ~1000-3000) you have a pretty good sharpness check
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_T220/T221_LCD_monitors
they are quite angle dependent and not to fast however.

But 3840 x 2400 is not 4K, and these monitors have horribly slow refresh at maximum resolution. They were primarily intended for medical applications where refresh isn't a critical gating factor. If you're not going to be displaying true 4K, wouldn't you be just as well off with a decent 23"?

Lucas
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ASSIMILATE< Inc.
LA, CA, USA