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  1. #1 4K DI options 
    Senior Member Blair S. Paulsen's Avatar
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    I think we would all love to have a real time 4K pipeline for DI and if you have enough money you can do that today. What if you want to do it at a realistic price? Somewhere north of shoestring indie territory but south of a heavy iron post facility.

    For the sake of this discussion lets set a timeline of a year or so. We want to grade native RedCode36 and see the results of our adjustments in real time on the display. Yes, this is a lot to ask - but we take it for granted that we can correct and view SD footage this way and with a little budget you can do the same in HD right now.

    Note: due to the quality of modern compression schemes and the bandwidth/cost issues of uncompressed 4K this theoretical exercise posits "visually lossless" compression will be used as needed.

    Parameters/Issues

    Display topology:

    AFAIK at NAB 2007 Red Digital used a DVS Clipster serving a Sony SXRD 4K Cinema sized projector via 4 dual link HD-SDI cables to show Peter Jackson's CTL short. Looked great but too expensive, too big and overkill for DI.

    Jim has a 4K delivery system in development and has promised to show it at NAB in April 2008. The basic components are likely a server, a monitor or projector and a way to connect them. This is a key piece.

    Grading:

    Assimilate's Scratch system, well equipped, can grade native RedCode at 2K in mostly real time (depending on what operations you are doing). Perhaps with enough horsepower on the computing side this can be done at 4K. (Lucas, Mark or someone with more hands on Scratch time can jump in and clarify this as I don't wish to misrepresent their product.)

    IMHO the best path to make this happen before 2011 is a dedicated acceleration module, PCIe2.0 card comes to mind, that can decode RedCode in real time. The alternative is to leverage the tech that Red uses in their 4K delivery system by integrating it with post tools. Of course I have no idea if Red is developing a stand alone server like the Clipster or something that runs on a MacPro tower with a hardware interface, or something else my pea brain can't conceive of.

    Would there be enough market for someone like AJA to build such an accelerator card? What is the quantity/price break between FPGAs and dedicated silicon? What kind of CPU/GPU horsepower and bus interface would be required to decode on the fly without an special purpose accelerator?

    Yes, before Mike Most and others jump on me, I happily concede that a talented colorist is a huge factor in the mix. I just want to give them the tools to see what they are doing without giving Discreet the deed to my house (or Ketch's ). In any case, I am out waving my sign and it says "4K power to the people", rock on.
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  2. #2  
    Quote Originally Posted by Blair S. Paulsen View Post
    Display topology:

    AFAIK at NAB 2007 Red Digital used a DVS Clipster serving a Sony SXRD 4K Cinema sized projector via 4 dual link HD-SDI cables to show Peter Jackson's CTL short.
    Small correction... At NAB, the SXRD was fed from a Keisoku Giken 4K DDR, not a Clipster.

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  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by Blair S. Paulsen View Post
    I think we would all love to have a real time 4K pipeline for DI and if you have enough money you can do that today. What if you want to do it at a realistic price? Somewhere north of shoestring indie territory but south of a heavy iron post facility.

    For the sake of this discussion lets set a timeline of a year or so. We want to grade native RedCode36 and see the results of our adjustments in real time on the display. Yes, this is a lot to ask - but we take it for granted that we can correct and view SD footage this way and with a little budget you can do the same in HD right now.

    Note: due to the quality of modern compression schemes and the bandwidth/cost issues of uncompressed 4K this theoretical exercise posits "visually lossless" compression will be used as needed.

    Parameters/Issues

    Display topology:

    AFAIK at NAB 2007 Red Digital used a DVS Clipster serving a Sony SXRD 4K Cinema sized projector via 4 dual link HD-SDI cables to show Peter Jackson's CTL short. Looked great but too expensive, too big and overkill for DI.
    Not suited for DI. Good luck calibrating that projector.

    Watch JVC take the 4K projector lead at NAB.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blair S. Paulsen View Post

    Jim has a 4K delivery system in development and has promised to show it at NAB in April 2008. The basic components are likely a server, a monitor or projector and a way to connect them. This is a key piece.
    Nope.

    Jim did NOT say he would SHOW anything. He said he would announce details. I HOPE it's a server/decoder that would play out REDCODE RAW and REDCODE RGB (it's coming because it MUST for delivery) to QUAD DVI and QUAD HD-SDI. I would like to just PLUG a third party drive into the server without transferring files.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blair S. Paulsen View Post
    Grading:

    Assimilate's Scratch system, well equipped, can grade native RedCode at 2K in mostly real time (depending on what operations you are doing). Perhaps with enough horsepower on the computing side this can be done at 4K. (Lucas, Mark or someone with more hands on Scratch time can jump in and clarify this as I don't wish to misrepresent their product.)
    I am not really all that interested in viewing in 4K while grading COLOR. I'll do it when I can for the "smoke and mirrors" perception thing. The film will look the same in terms of color. 2K is the deal. The size of the screen and distance needed to resolve 4K is not really suit any DI suite I can imagine. What I want in my RED PROJECTOR is actually RED 4K image sampled to 2K - that is the SWEET RED SPOT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blair S. Paulsen View Post
    IMHO the best path to make this happen before 2011 is a dedicated acceleration module, PCIe2.0 card comes to mind, that can decode RedCode in real time. The alternative is to leverage the tech that Red uses in their 4K delivery system by integrating it with post tools. Of course I have no idea if Red is developing a stand alone server like the Clipster or something that runs on a MacPro tower with a hardware interface, or something else my pea brain can't conceive of.

    Would there be enough market for someone like AJA to build such an accelerator card? What is the quantity/price break between FPGAs and dedicated silicon? What kind of CPU/GPU horsepower and bus interface would be required to decode on the fly without an special purpose accelerator?

    Yes, before Mike Most and others jump on me, I happily concede that a talented colorist is a huge factor in the mix. I just want to give them the tools to see what they are doing without giving Discreet the deed to my house (or Ketch's ). In any case, I am out waving my sign and it says "4K power to the people", rock on.
    Not sure what you are after Blair. Right now, TODAY, we can grade 4K RED media in 2K realtime on Scratch on a prototype workstation from BOXX. render out 4K DPX or TIFF. Not sure what else you want that isn't already working ... March 7th, 2008.
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  4. #4  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blair S. Paulsen View Post
    I think we would all love to have a real time 4K pipeline for DI ......
    I have to ask...

    Why? What exactly are you delivering and to whom that this is important? If we're talking about actual distribution, it should be noted that at least 85% of high end DI work is done in 2K, and to date there have been very, very few digital cinema packages done in anything but 2K. So even in the highest end theatrical distribution chains, there is little demand or even opportunity for 4K finishing or delivery elements. Other than personal ego or a lack of understanding of distribution realities, what are your reasons for feeling that this is needed?
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  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by mmost View Post
    I have to ask...

    Why? What exactly are you delivering and to whom that this is important? If we're talking about actual distribution, it should be noted that at least 85% of high end DI work is done in 2K, and to date there have been very, very few digital cinema packages done in anything but 2K. So even in the highest end theatrical distribution chains, there is little demand or even opportunity for 4K finishing or delivery elements. Other than personal ego or a lack of understanding of distribution realities, what are your reasons for feeling that this is needed?
    Exactly. FIRST you want killer RED 4K to current 2K infrastructure.

    But for the record ... personal ego and perception run this industry.

    Oh yeah ... and stupid committees.

    I am selling "F the DCI" T-shirts at NAB.
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  6. #6 REDCINE EDL/ FCP XML Import 
    Senior Member gbalaji's Avatar
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    Why not we have edl/FCP XML import in REDCINE to do a primary color correction of what edited in FCP. Cheapest option.Once done with primary color correction export 4k as dpx file and take to any DI suite you want. Why not RED implement this in REDCINE as of now?

    Sorry, if i deviate from the topic.
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  7. #7  
    I'd be happy with finally having the R3ds drop right in the timeline, and having an FX plug to manipulate the native files from FCP. There's obviously some reason this hasn't happened yet but once that can be done I'll be pretty happy. Don't get me wrong, the 2K proxy is working great on my machine right now but the round trip to Redcine is workable but really not ideal.
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  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by Evin Grant View Post
    I'd be happy with finally having the R3ds drop right in the timeline,
    Evin - you mean QT wrappers from R3ds I assume. Which you CAN do now. RT performance is based on system, BUT wrappers do NOT have a true debayer. FCP timeline will NEVER take "r3ds" as FCP is built on QT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evin Grant View Post
    and having an FX plug to manipulate the native files from FCP.
    I don't think FXplug is the right architecture for the job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evin Grant View Post
    Don't get me wrong, the 2K proxy is working great on my machine right now but the round trip to Redcine is workable but really not ideal.
    Well ... round trippin to REDCINE is about to get a hell of lot more elagent. I'll show you in person next Sat. at the LA User Group breakfast.

    You guys gotta remember that Apple has COLOR now in Final Cut Studio. More and more they will build build up that app - Apple is going to assume you want to EDIT in FCP and COLOR in COLOR.

    IMHO - COLOR will be the DIY for grading RED. It will be the "poor mans" DI for RED. And since I have been holding my breath for over 5 years for Apple to solve GAMMA HELL - how long do you think I will have to hold my breath for them to change their GPU driver bottleneck? Until then, best of luck getting anything close to excting in Color's playback speed. I do think that EVENTUALLY Color will be bad ass. I just can't wait for them to do it (2-3 years) and I have already moved past it.
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  9. #9  
    Senior Member Sanjin Jukic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Offhollywood View Post
    FCP timeline will NEVER take "r3ds" as FCP is built on QT.
    Nonsense!

    As we know for the last 10 years that QT has an open software architecture

    AND ACCORDING TO THAT IS POSSIBLE TO INCOPORATE R3D CODEC TO QUICKTIME.

    It's just a matter of RED and Apple how and when can do it.

    We just have to ask Frank Casanova, Apple's director of QuickTime product marketing more about that.
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  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by Offhollywood View Post
    IMHO - COLOR will be the DIY for grading RED. It will be the "poor mans" DI for RED. And since I have been holding my breath for over 5 years for Apple to solve GAMMA HELL - how long do you think I will have to hold my breath for them to change their GPU driver bottleneck? Until then, best of luck getting anything close to excting in Color's playback speed. I do think that EVENTUALLY Color will be bad ass. I just can't wait for them to do it (2-3 years) and I have already moved past it.
    I've tested Color with my Nividia 5600fx and it is very fast. RT 1080p up to 30 fps. I am not a IT person but the 5600fx is a new dimension in this regard, IMHO.

    Hans
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