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  1. #121  
    REDuser Sponsor Gunleik Groven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin O'Neill View Post
    Here is what bothers me about people saying the price decrease de-values the RED brand. Before RED came along the Sony F23 was over $100k and film cameras were hundreds of thousands of dollars. When RED announced the 4k RED One in 2007 for $17,500 it allowed people like us to join the ranks of the high end camera club. People who owned F23s and film cameras were horrified that they were losing jobs to a camera that cost 1/5th of what theirs did.

    Of course it would make my life easier if a camera I paid $10k for cost everyone else $34k, but I as on the other end of that equation just 5 years ago so it feels hypocritical be upset about it. If you look at the history of RED from the beginning, it is more like Epic prices were inflated for the past two years due the massive cost of developing the ASIC and the supply problems caused by the tsunami.

    Thanks for bringing in some soberty into this!
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  2. #122  
    Senior Member Andrae Palmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe View Post
    Your camera's "value" was already perceived to be in the $20K Stage 2 /3 ballpark range. Rental package / hardware day rates are determined by supply and demand in most markets. EPIC kits rent out here for $250/day. Resale value on the EPIC has been held artificially low anyway due to the number of Stage-3 people dumping cameras for around what they paid for their upgrades. This has been going on for about a year. Most every owner/operator I know around here is struggling and starving. Too much competition, not enough of that sort of work. Rental rates barely cover insurance and general maintenance. Nobody wants to hire a glorified babysitter who calls himself a DIT. Productions around here don't use DIT's. They call them DIT's, but they're almost always an intern or low-paid person who does little more than copy files. Those of us in busy markets outside of Hollywood, NYC, and similar have to find other ways to make money and carve out niches for ourselves.
    Scott,

    Take a look at what Jeff is saying here. He seems to be proving my point. Supply and demand... he's right. Too much supply... too little demand. RED One MX's at Canon 5D Mark III prices don't help the situation very much.
    Andrae Palmer
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    Package for rent in South Florida with RED EPIC Dragon 6K, RED One, Sony a7S II, Canon 5D Mark IV, Canon L lenses, Zeiss CP.2 T1.5 Super Speeds, EZ Rig + DJI Ronin & EZ Jib + Remote Head. Grip package with LED LitePanels 1X1, Kino Flo 4x4, ARRI Fresnels & Source Four Leko. Rentals/Equipment List: http://facetmedia.com/camera-packages/
     

  3. #123  
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    Edited: According to the simple calculations of Rent Me! only soft demand reduces the daily rate of a $19,000 item below $570 to $190 I think. Based upon that, you could be looking at a $60/day rate reduction. Does that sound right?
    Last edited by Scott Crawley; 11-05-2012 at 11:17 AM.
     

  4. #124  
    Senior Member Andrae Palmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Crawley View Post
    i'm not getting you. If Jeff is correct and rates were previously artificially low, why would this have any additional effect? If rates are already that low, how would they get lower? According to the simple calculations of Rent Me! only soft demand reduces the daily rate of a $19,000 item below $570 to under $200.
    Rates were low in "his" market. I don't see anyone in my market working with a EPIC for $250. So the saturation in his market will soon happen in my market. Proves my point...the cameras are too cheap.
    Andrae Palmer
    Founder, FACETMEDIA LLC
    facebook.com/facetmedia

    Package for rent in South Florida with RED EPIC Dragon 6K, RED One, Sony a7S II, Canon 5D Mark IV, Canon L lenses, Zeiss CP.2 T1.5 Super Speeds, EZ Rig + DJI Ronin & EZ Jib + Remote Head. Grip package with LED LitePanels 1X1, Kino Flo 4x4, ARRI Fresnels & Source Four Leko. Rentals/Equipment List: http://facetmedia.com/camera-packages/
     

  5. #125  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrae Palmer View Post
    Rates were low in "his" market. I don't see anyone in my market working with a EPIC for $250. So the saturation in his market will soon happen in my market. Proves my point...the cameras are too cheap.
    Too cheap to think you will make a killing renting it, that's for sure. But then as you seemed to say, you are in the service business more than the rental business, right?

    Do you think that some newcomer will be providing better service than you with his newly bought Epics? What is your experience worth?

    I guess you believe the supply:demand ratio for Alexa is a stronger position and you may be right for now. How will you plan for the 4k Alexa... Or are you going elsewhere?
     

  6. #126  
    REDuser Sponsor Gunleik Groven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrae Palmer View Post
    Rates were low in "his" market. I don't see anyone in my market working with a EPIC for $250. So the saturation in his market will soon happen in my market. Proves my point...the cameras are too cheap.
    Don't really agree, even though I see your point.
    If you give your clients the best result, the price of the kit won't affect your rates....

    And as it sounds, you do.

    You still haven't commented on my resolve question...
    Life is good. So is RED...


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  7. #127  
    Senior Member Terry VerHaar's Avatar
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    Here's a thought - by a second Epic, thereby averaging down your cost, set them up as a stereo unit and specialize in shooting 3D!
     

  8. #128  
    Senior Member Andrae Palmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunleik Groven View Post
    You still haven't commented on my resolve question...
    Yes I'm into Davinci Resolve grading... before that I was into Apple Color. I don't make any money from it... I usually just advice on RED workflow now. No one in my market can properly pay me for the service or understand the value of it.
    Andrae Palmer
    Founder, FACETMEDIA LLC
    facebook.com/facetmedia

    Package for rent in South Florida with RED EPIC Dragon 6K, RED One, Sony a7S II, Canon 5D Mark IV, Canon L lenses, Zeiss CP.2 T1.5 Super Speeds, EZ Rig + DJI Ronin & EZ Jib + Remote Head. Grip package with LED LitePanels 1X1, Kino Flo 4x4, ARRI Fresnels & Source Four Leko. Rentals/Equipment List: http://facetmedia.com/camera-packages/
     

  9. #129  
    REDuser Sponsor Gunleik Groven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry VerHaar View Post
    Here's a thought - by a second Epic, thereby averaging down your cost, set them up as a stereo unit and specialize in shooting 3D!
    Good theory.

    Would only be valid if demand exceeds ability to deliver.
    Life is good. So is RED...


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  10. #130  
    Senior Member mikeburton's Avatar
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    Just to put some of this in perspective, about a year ago I bought an Arri 435es complete package which retailed for well over $150K for under $12K. The guy that sold it to me had purchased the entire package for over $150K and knew this massive depreciation was just part of the business. And last i looked if it was just about the image the pictures i can create on that camera once scanned to 4K DPX sequences are arguably better than any i've seen other than true 65mm IMAX imagery. Does that mean Arri's brand has gone down the crapper? I do sympathize with others that lost money in this whole deal, as for some the gear is there livelihood. I would never call them whiners or complainers or some of the other ridiculous comments that i've seen here and in other threads recently. I hate that kind of fanboy attitude, its just not going to get you anywhere. Its okay to be a fan of the company but having blind brand loyalty is only going to bite you in the ass at some point. If you want to invest in something, invest in what makes you valuable and you can never lose, that way whichever tool you decide to use will always be valuable.
    I've owned all types of cameras, film, Red, cannon, nikon, Arri, sony, panasonic etc etc etc and they are all good for what they are good for while they are good. When you determine its time to put your money to better use with another brand, that is for you to determine as our original poster is basically saying. And that is as simple as it gets.
     

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