Thread: JIM, GRAB A BEER & LETS TALK...

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  1. #1 JIM, GRAB A BEER & LETS TALK... 
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    I don't feel robbed.

    I'm not gonna yell or scream or vent. And I'm not going to hurl vitriol at you. I count you as a friend that finally put 35mm widescreen equivalent filmmaking in my hands and in so doing you gave the industry a kick in the ass so swift its still trying to catch its balance.

    Over this beer I just want to paint you a picture from a self-centered user's point of view. And yeah I'm a self-centered user. You created me man... you made me that way. Before you, cameras were the purview of Rental Houses and high-interest business loans... you ushered in an era of owners. Like many here I've spent more money on my camera then I've ever spent on a car - and I like cars - so of course I'm self centered about it. You made me an owner... someone who was now able to afford owning a tool to make cinema, but someone who also now had to bear the financial responsibility of managing that ownership.

    I bought into RED because it was the first tool that allowed me to tell the stories I wanted to tell cinematically. I'd slogged through all supposed solutions along the way... Cinelook, XL1, DVX, FilmLook, HVX, HPX, SR3 and all of them were always a compromise. The RED ONE wasn't.... it was a camera I could shoot cinema on. Hell you can even go through Answer-Printing in your underwear now with RAW.

    When I bought into stage 3 I was a little more seasoned... I bought into the idea that I was supporting the effort and that I would be one of the first to have an Epic a clear business and creative advantage. Now maybe this was something I inferred or made up. Maybe it was never promised. But I'm not alone. Many of us made this same inference and it was even encouraged here on REDUSER. At any rate this inference on my part was smashed with the release of the Epic M, a prototype that was supposed to only go to a few.... but actually went to many... eroding my Rentals on my RED-ONE but still I wasn't worried because I was in stage 3 I was to get mine soon.

    But it wasn't soon... it was a Rental eroding eternity. From the time we all congratulated Ketch on his Epic M, It was over a year before I finally got my hands on an epic of my own. By that time my Red-One Rentals had all but withered and even in the DC Market I was renting Epics from others for jobs while my REDONE sat dormant because its what the client wanted. This is NOT your fault.... its just the way it is. Clients will always want the next best think. Clients will always believe the song and dance before the image.

    But now we come to these price reductions... I haven't even had my Epic for 6 months yet. And when I got my epic I had to wait even longer for the accessories to make it functional and yet I was still happy... but this hits hard. Over a beer I'm telling you this hurt. You created me... and I love ya for it, but this hurt. A Pro-Level camera I have not had for more than 5 months just had its value reduced by over 30%. I know you say this is characteristic of electronics, and if we were talking about ipods and laptops I would agree with you... but this is not characteristic of the Pro Camera market. Its unprecedented and it hurts a bit. I waited patiently for a year while everyone else in the world (seemingly - remember you made me ;-) ) got their Epics. Hell I watched scores get their Scarlets before I got my Epic. But now I have had the camera barely 3 and half months (EPIC and ACCESSORIES) and its worth a third less this morning than it was yesterday. Not everybody has had a year and a half with the camera... not everybody was able to readily rent the REDONE to clients no matter how viable and awesome we knew it was.

    Jarred said it himself. We the owners allow you to push forward by buying in. I'm still on board, still along for the ride but don't forget the unprecedented responsibility we've taken on to be RED EPIC owners in the rush forward. Their is a cost to moving forward but Owners like us shouldn't be paying for all of it. Yes I've put my Epic to good use in the last few months and the filmmaker in me loves that your pushing forward with zeal but the business owner in me is reeling from a 30% hit on a camera I've only had use of for three and half months and what the influx in cameras this price shift will surely cause will do to the rental market and the prices I can charge.

    I still love the camera. I'm still thankful for the kick in the ass you gave the industry. And I don't think I've ever been treated poorly by RED ever. But over a beer I just wanted you to hear why it hurt from an Owner that isn't a studio or a rental house but rather an individual; an Owner you created that has all the responsibilities that comes with that ownership. You created this level of ownership and responsibility. I know you know about the ownership... but I think you forget about the responsibility in your excitement to push forward.

    I'm not getting off the ride, and the fact that I'm staying on is why I wanted this to be said.

    Hit me up at NAB... I think I owe you a beer.
     

  2. #2  
    Senior Member Andrae Palmer's Avatar
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    By my calculations it's a 45% price reduction. But in all honesty you were Stage 3 and only bought into it for 10K. I feel your pain brother. I've come to take a more holistic view of the production world and now I offer my clients a service that is very hard to beat. I will still be able to charge them $1450 for an EPIC... because I was hooking them up with so many other stuff for free. It doesn't really hurt me now... but I don't want to stick with a manufacturer who is racing their prices to the bottom either. I would love some type of security.
    Andrae Palmer
    Founder, FACETMEDIA LLC
    facebook.com/facetmedia

    Package for rent in South Florida with RED EPIC Dragon 6K, RED One, Sony a7S II, Canon 5D Mark IV, Canon L lenses, Zeiss CP.2 T1.5 Super Speeds, EZ Rig + DJI Ronin & EZ Jib + Remote Head. Grip package with LED LitePanels 1X1, Kino Flo 4x4, ARRI Fresnels & Source Four Leko. Rentals/Equipment List: http://facetmedia.com/camera-packages/
     

  3. #3  
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    Who doesn't like progress, improved availability and lower prices?

    I clearly remember Jim stating along product release time something along the lines that cameras are tools,
    and not to buy one if the work isn't already there to justify the cost. That's some honest talk from a CEO I've never heard...

    Do we really expect RED to stop making and releasing new cameras, or making them less expensive and passing on the savings to everyone?

    As I recall, RED has been extremely generous on upgrades / trade-ins to loyal customers for new product releases- if you stick around,
    maybe RED will have a great deal for you next year... until then keep shooting?
     

  4. #4  
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    I'm not going to reply to everyone who responds... but saying I only bought in for $10,000 neglects the very real diminishing returns of waiting through stage 2 and Epic M.

    Those losses while hard to calculate are VERY real.

    And I cringe at the possible wait for Dragon and the diminishing returns as the clients decide Dragon is the only way to go well before I've recieved mine.
     

  5. #5  
    Senior Member Andrae Palmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Bellari View Post
    Who doesn't like progress, improved availability and lower prices?

    I clearly remember Jim stating along product release time something along the lines that cameras are tools,
    and not to buy one if the work isn't already there to justify the cost. That's some honest talk from a CEO I've never heard...

    Do we really expect RED to stop making and releasing new cameras, or making them less expensive and passing on the savings to new everyone?

    As I recall, RED has been extremely generous on upgrades / trade-ins to loyal customers for new product releases- if you stick around,
    maybe RED will have a great deal for you next year... until then keep shooting?
    He created the EPIC-M program out of thin air and we were unaware of this when we signed up. While EPIC-M owners had an advantage in the market place... we were still waiting for our cameras. If I had known about the EPIC-M program in advance I would have bought into that before I had committed to Stage 2 for two EPIC-X cameras. Even more many people got their cameras in a non operable manner.... a piece here and a piece there. I would have made a killing last year if the roadmap was more well laid out to us.

    This price drop doesn't hurt me as much... because I decided to move my investments away from the camera body. Give my exisitng clients more support with lighting, DIT and grip. That keeps them coming back to me. Thank God I saw what was coming.
    Andrae Palmer
    Founder, FACETMEDIA LLC
    facebook.com/facetmedia

    Package for rent in South Florida with RED EPIC Dragon 6K, RED One, Sony a7S II, Canon 5D Mark IV, Canon L lenses, Zeiss CP.2 T1.5 Super Speeds, EZ Rig + DJI Ronin & EZ Jib + Remote Head. Grip package with LED LitePanels 1X1, Kino Flo 4x4, ARRI Fresnels & Source Four Leko. Rentals/Equipment List: http://facetmedia.com/camera-packages/
     

  6. #6  
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    ...great thread. Unlike the others, it doesn't reek of hatred for RED, EDIT: lack of respect for other users, or sickening fanaticism. I hope it will stay that way.

    ...but doubt it.
    ...too much RED on the brain.

    RED ONE# 43, RED ONE# 381
    EPIC-X# 43, EPIC-X# 385
    WEAPON (CF) #88
     

  7. #7  
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    So to be clear you are upset that the camera you have, the EPIC X, which you got at Stage 3 for $10,500 including all the accessories [details below] plus the trade in at full price for the camera that you had and used for 2-3 years, is now worth $19,000 without accessories?

    The sense of entitlement here is both troubling and embarrassing. Seriously take some responsibility for your actions.

    What do you think the trade off is for Obsolescence Obsolete? Did you think that RED could just keep investing in R&D and upgrading your camera for a minimal fee every couple of years and not expand its market share?

    You can't have it both ways. You can choose the old model and keep buying a brand new camera every few years or you can build a relationship with one company that is trying something different. You guys expect to have your cake and eat it.

    This is the trade off of the RED model. Competitive pricing. This business model makes your Dragon sensor better and affordable and the company more stable for you in the future.


    Stage 3
    Cost is $28,000 less $17,500 to trade-in your RED ONE. Net price of $10,500 and comes with: 1x S35 MYSTERIUM-X brain with PL mount, 1x 2.8" LCD, 1x REDMOTE, 1x Side CF Module, 1x Module Adaptor, 1x Base I/O Module, 1x Pro Battery Module, 2x REDVOLT standard batteries, and 1x travel charger.
     

  8. #8  
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    RED didn't make anybody buy a camera. Ever. Just saying. It is always a RISK. Don't count your eggs yada yada...Buyer beware. This goes for all companies. C'mon. Anybody else would have you buy another body every year. No upgrades. No connection. Epic rentals should be close to the same, as the body is a small part of a camera package. But I'm sure everyone will get over this soon enough, I'm also sure it was/is painful and suprising at first...
    JAKE WILGANOWSKI
    Director of Photography / Filmmaker
    CINE-AUTOMATIC.COM
     

  9. #9  
    Senior Member Andrae Palmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ash Worth View Post
    So to be clear you are upset that the camera you have, the EPIC X, which you got at Stage 3 for $10,500 including all the accessories [details below] plus the trade in at full price for the camera that you had and used for 2-3 years, is now worth $19,000 without accessories?
    What about his points of losing out on jobs while waiting around for the camera to arrive? I don't think many people would have thought the Stage upgrade programs would take so long and that the EPIC-M program would exist and for so long. That is a serious disruption to any planned business models.
    Andrae Palmer
    Founder, FACETMEDIA LLC
    facebook.com/facetmedia

    Package for rent in South Florida with RED EPIC Dragon 6K, RED One, Sony a7S II, Canon 5D Mark IV, Canon L lenses, Zeiss CP.2 T1.5 Super Speeds, EZ Rig + DJI Ronin & EZ Jib + Remote Head. Grip package with LED LitePanels 1X1, Kino Flo 4x4, ARRI Fresnels & Source Four Leko. Rentals/Equipment List: http://facetmedia.com/camera-packages/
     

  10. #10  
    Senior Member Terry VerHaar's Avatar
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    I am feeling really pissed myself. JVC never came back to me and offered to buy back or upgrade the HD-110 I bought in 2009. It still only shoots 720P even though they came out with a 1080P camera a year later. I could have spent another $6 or 8K (I forget, exactly) to get the new one but...
     

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