Epic vs F65

[Nick Timmons]

Not complete nonsense, but some of these points are debatable. I find the Alexa to be simpler to use on a single person/guerrilla shoot. You just hoist the thing on your shoulder, and shoot. You'll need a shoulder rig for Epic, and the menus can be a little trickier. Of course, the fact that the Epic doesn't have a built-in shoulder mount is a huge advantage in other shooting modes!
Rental return is also VERY debatable, and I would be inclined to say the Alexa wins by a margin, but this is an opinion backed by nothing but personal anecdotal evidence.

[M Most]

alexa is winning in itv land uk, epic is winning in america it seems.. all are over priced imho

In television? Not really. In the US, the Alexa practically owns the network and cable television production market, at least in terms of studio level work. In fact, if you made a list of shows on Alexa vs. shows on anything else, the "anything else" would be a remarkably short list. In features, it's a healthy mix of Epic, Alexa, and F65 these days, partly depending on whether the picture is 3D (in which case Epic has great advantages and is therefore a very common choice) and its budget level (larger budget, non-3D pictures at this point are gravitating towards either film or the F65, albeit with a number of exceptions). In terms of personal ownership cameras, yes, the Epic obviously has considerably higher numbers than either of the other two, which is not surprising given that this has always been a large part of Red's plan right from the start.

[Dave Blackham]

In television? Not really. In the US, the Alexa practically owns the network and cable television production market, at least in terms of studio level work. In fact, if you made a list of shows on Alexa vs. shows on anything else, the "anything else" would be a remarkably short list.

Do you think this is a workflow advantage Alexa has, marketing or other factor ?

[M Most]

Do you think this is a workflow advantage Alexa has, marketing or other factor ?

All of the above. But what I hear most often is the images (#1 answer), perceived simplicity, and ease of conform in post. There are some misnomers, to be sure. As an example, if you asked the average cameraman or post person which files are generally smaller - ProRes 444 or Red 4K - the majority would probably say ProRes, which in most cases is the wrong answer. If you're comparing to Epic the file sizes are often closer, depending on what compression you choose. But "smaller file sizes" is not a sensible reason to choose Alexa for television work, even though it's sometimes listed as one. The other reasons are more sensible, even if they are opinions.

Having said that, the "workflow" argument could be a lot less significant if Red would figure out a way to eliminate the need for the Red Rocket and do their "heavy lifting" on commodity GPUs, like both Arri and Sony currently do. Everyone doing any kind of serious post work has things like GTX580's in their systems, or can easily add them. Not everyone wants to spend $10K on two Red Rocket cards just to be able to handle one camera efficiently on every machine, especially when they already need the Nvidia cards for everything else. Granted, wavelet decompression is a compute intensive task, and neither Arri nor Sony have to deal with that (the tradeoff being larger file sizes, of course). But there is a CUDA enabled JPEG2000 engine, and has been for quite a while. Red's argument that doing it on custom hardware is "better" is holding them back IMHO, especially for those who don't really see what's "better" about it and are really just interested in pure speed and commonality with the workflows for other cameras. Red and RedUsers might not like hearing that, but it is reality.

[rod bradley]

Rob Ruffo's points are to me very well taken. My feeling is being too Red-centric and not taking in account Epic's characteristics realistically (some might call weaknesses) along with its astonishing strengths, actually demeans the camera and creates a kind of distrust that allows false mythologies to proliferate. Fan-boyism does not reflect well on either Red or those of us who use Epics and Red One's for the vast majority of our work. I loved my Red 1, I love my Epic but they are not the only cameras in the world.

If we cannot admit imperfections in ourselves, pointing out imperfections in others becomes pretty hollow and smacks of arrogance.

[Rob Ruffo]

All of the above. But what I hear most often is the images (#1 answer), perceived simplicity, and ease of conform in post. There are some misnomers, to be sure. As an example, if you asked the average cameraman or post person which files are generally smaller - ProRes 444 or Red 4K - the majority would probably say ProRes, which in most cases is the wrong answer. If you're comparing to Epic the file sizes are often closer, depending on what compression you choose. But "smaller file sizes" is not a sensible reason to choose Alexa for television work, even though it's sometimes listed as one. The other reasons are more sensible, even if they are opinions.

Having said that, the "workflow" argument could be a lot less significant if Red would figure out a way to eliminate the need for the Red Rocket and do their "heavy lifting" on commodity GPUs, like both Arri and Sony currently do. Everyone doing any kind of serious post work has things like GTX580's in their systems, or can easily add them. Not everyone wants to spend $10K on two Red Rocket cards just to be able to handle one camera efficiently on every machine, especially when they already need the Nvidia cards for everything else. Granted, wavelet decompression is a compute intensive task, and neither Arri nor Sony have to deal with that (the tradeoff being larger file sizes, of course). But there is a CUDA enabled JPEG2000 engine, and has been for quite a while. Red's argument that doing it on custom hardware is "better" is holding them back IMHO, especially for those who don't really see what's "better" about it and are really just interested in pure speed and commonality with the workflows for other cameras. Red and RedUsers might not like hearing that, but it is reality.

I agree. I have also noticed that the Redrocket debayering is not quite as clean as Resolve's. (Difference is very subtle, but there).

I also understand not everyone wants to use Premiere, although it does solve the issue completely, and has generally become a totally non-crappy NLE despite it's ultra-crap origins.

[Dave Blackham]

I think Mike is right on those points. The issue is here work out what the weaknesses are and fix them, in our house I don't have an issue with Red workflow but would prefer it if there were an easy debeyer engine, I have have plenty high end GPU's all of which could angle Debeyer if we had code to do it. There is a difference between RR debeyer and software debeyer I believe and I think software wins by a small margin. For an Red v Prores workflow then it is easier for Alexa, irrespective of perceived good or less good image quality, just in terms of simplicity, Im not so sure that Sony wins the game for its workflow though.

Its interesting Premier is mentioned only as we bought another couple of licences today to aid workflow. I suppose we will have to get to like it. Given we are still on a continually improving technology trajectory in that things are getting faster then perhaps things will move to RT GPU debeyer quickly.

[Rob Ruffo]

I think Mike is right on those points. The issue is here work out what the weaknesses are and fix them, in our house I don't have an issue with Red workflow but would prefer it if there were an easy debeyer engine, I have have plenty high end GPU's all of which could angle Debeyer if we had code to do it. There is a difference between RR debeyer and software debeyer I believe and I think software wins by a small margin. For an Red v Prores workflow then it is easier for Alexa, irrespective of perceived good or less good image quality, just in terms of simplicity, Im not so sure that Sony wins the game for its workflow though.

Its interesting Premier is mentioned only as we bought another couple of licences today to aid workflow. I suppose we will have to get to like it. Given we are still on a continually improving technology trajectory in that things are getting faster then perhaps things will move to RT GPU debeyer quickly.

Welcome to the world of only transcoding the finished timeline, and not really needing a Rocket at all :-)

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Tick your own boxes...

No, add your own boxes. It's like adding "gas mileage" as a checkbox. Who cares? ;)

[tony gardiner]

I understand it is within peoples nature to want to know"what is the best camera!?!" but it is a case of different tools for different jobs! I own a 5dmkII, a red1, an epic and a F65 and I love all of them for different reasons. I suggest to every person out there who calls themselves cinematographers, cameraman, directors of photography, students, whatever to go and TEST for yourselves.

The epic is amazing because it of it size its versatility, resolution, frame rate, hdrx (and many other reasons). The red one is amazing because a student / professional on a tight budget can go rent and shoot with a camera that has shot oscar winning films for next to nothing and the images are in stunning 4k!!! The F65 is a camera that has an amazing natural dynamic range and amazing color rendition, it has an 8k sensor that subsample down to 4k it has a stunning image quality. I have only shot a handful of jobs on the Alexa however that camera suits a lot of peoples needs and wants. As much as some people want it there is not one camera out there that suits every need of every person, i.e while the epic may suit every one of YOUR personal needs, it does not suit every one of my clients needs so hence I have a variety of cameras.

I LOVE my epic the red one started my love affair with red and the epic has strengthened it. However I love my F65, to ask me to choose would be like asking to choose a favorite child, (some people may able to do that but they would never tell anyone :P )
I just get tired of the "vs" arguments we live in an AMAZING time with some many wonderful options. Sometimes I feel we as an industry focus to much on the gear and not enough on our craft. If you are an aspiring cinematographer go out and shoot learn your craft then make informed decisions on which gear is best for you shoot.