Grading tutorial using Premiere and AE CS6 exclusively - or is that even workable?

[Les C.]

I'm trying to come up with a workflow that makes sense with R3D files.

I want to be able to de-noise with NeatVideo, use 3rd party effects like BeautyBox, and keep using R3D's without transcoding until the final output stage.

Speedgrade has no nodes, may not be totally debugged, and if I use it natively with R3D's, I can't use NeatVideo on the R3D files as the first stage - as I'd have to output in some other format, and then use NeatVideo.

Resolve - I really like, has nodes, has it's own de-noiser (how does it compare to NeatVideo), but I'd still have the same problem where I'd have to output in some format other than R3D's to apply 3rd party effect (NeatView, etc.)

So, I'm curious if there are any tutorials where the grading is done within Premiere and AE exclusively.

Using trackers with masks to enhance areas of interest, etc. - all the things you can do in BlackMagic.

Or, am I just spinning my wheels, worrying too much about staying in R3D during the entire process?

I know some others are de-noising 1080p output from the free version of Resolve as the last stage.

Buying the full version of Resolve would allow me to do that at 4K.

Any thoughts or comments?

[Lliam Worthington]

This is not dissimilar to my workflow Les, though at present I have been using colourista II. However I intend to explore Speedgrade when i go on subscription for CS6 very soon as
I was under the impression that while it Speedgrade doesn't use nodes like Resolve, it' uses adjustment layers instead, much like AE, and you can also mask and track etc?
Am I wrong? Can someone else chime in on this?

There's a few grumbles around about EDL vs a send to Speedgrade option, but i too want simple as possible and love the flexibility of Raw right through, and so would prefer to stay in CS6 and I'm sure while Resolve is still considered superior, the way Adobe are moving and shaking it's only a matter of time before SG becomes pretty outstanding also.

Oh, and all the opinions I have heard/read seem to weigh in in favour of Neatvideo as having pride of place for denoising.

[Lin]

This is not dissimilar to my workflow Les, though at present I have been using colourista II. However I intend to explore Speedgrade when i go on subscription for CS6 very soon as
I was under the impression that while it Speedgrade doesn't use nodes like Resolve, it' uses adjustment layers instead, much like AE, and you can also mask and track etc?
Am I wrong? Can someone else chime in on this?

Correct, SpeedGrade uses adjustment layers, not nodes. When we designed SpeedGrade, we found layers to be more intuitive and basically just as powerful (unless you are talking really complex compositing setups, where nodes are cool).

Lin

[Les C.]

Correct, SpeedGrade uses adjustment layers, not nodes. When we designed SpeedGrade, we found layers to be more intuitive and basically just as powerful (unless you are talking really complex compositing setups, where nodes are cool).

Lin

If you told a Fusion, Nuke or Resolve user that nodes had been replaced by layers, they would move to another product.

Once you've used nodes, it's like working in DOS as opposed to a GUI.

There's really no reason that you can't offer a node interface for power users - and no downside if it is optional.

have you seen this? http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?77990-Another-Adobe-Workflow-Video-(short-and-sweet)

I just watched it. Very nice. I'd much rather use Resolve, but ... there's just no way to have a native R3D workflow from end to end using Resolve or SpeedGrade for that matter.

I'll have to experiment, and compare the differences between applying NeatVideo and some other 3rd party effects to a Resolve render - as opposed to applying them to R3D's if I keep the workflow native.

Maybe, if I buy the full Resolve package and output 4K, the difference will be negligible when applying the 3rd party plug-ins in AE, but ... frustrating that there's no way to 'get there from here' for a complete R3D workflow ... yet.

[Les C.]

The problem is that, to work with SpeedGrade using R3D's, you have to do your edits in Premiere, then send the R3D's to SpeedGrade.

You can't apply any effects in Premiere that get past onto the R3D's sent to SpeedGrade.

Coming out of SpeedGrade, it's no longer R3D.

To me, this is a major issue.

I might as well use Resolve, which is more powerful with nodes, pretty much the same workflow - and a bit more battle tested (I read about blue screen issues with SpeedGrade)

[Noel R.]

I agree. So what is the benefit of using Speedgrade vs. DaVinci? I shoot a lot of music videos applying effects like time re-mapping and others, and if that can't transfer those effects directly to Speedgrade, why not just use DaVinci? The workflow sucks but Speedgrade doesn't seem to offer a huge improvement other than the send to option, which to me just means your are only skipping exporting and importing an XML file.

The problem is that, to work with SpeedGrade using R3D's, you have to do your edits in Premiere, then send the R3D's to SpeedGrade.

You can't apply any effects in Premiere that get past onto the R3D's sent to SpeedGrade.

Coming out of SpeedGrade, it's no longer R3D.

To me, this is a major issue.

I might as well use Resolve, which is more powerful with nodes, pretty much the same workflow - and a bit more battle tested (I read about blue screen issues with SpeedGrade)

[Mike P.]

You can, but it gets rather messy. I think Stu Maschuwitz does it, but he's a bit of an AE/Compositing whiz kid. The problem I've found is that I end up applying so many layers to each clip that it ends up getting quite unruly... For example, secondaries would have be done in their own layer, per edit, so if you import a timeline with a bunch of edits into AE it can get out of hand with each shot having their own set of layers. That said, dynamic link sends the composite back to Premiere fairly intact (based off the original .r3ds) so you don't transcode at all...

I was under the impression that SpeedGrade would be the same, but it sounds more like Final Cut/Apple Colour, where it renders coming out of Colour before being sent back to FC. If that's the only way you can do it, then the implementation of SpeedGrade is somewhat antiquated out of the gate.

The way it should be (in my opinion) is as corrections and adjustments (primaries, secondaries, vignettes, etc.) are being made in SpeedGrade, the clip in premiere is reflecting those changes on the fly. That way you're only rendering once out of premiere to your deliverable, remaining in .r3ds the entire time prior to that... Is that not how it is?

[Les C.]

The way it should be (in my opinion) is as corrections and adjustments (primaries, secondaries, vignettes, etc.) are being made in SpeedGrade, the clip in premiere is reflecting those changes on the fly. That way you're only rendering once out of premiere to your deliverable, remaining in .r3ds the entire time prior to that... Is that not how it is?

No, you render from SpeedGrade. You can't remain in R3D's back and forth.

[Subhadip Sen]

No, you render from SpeedGrade. You can't remain in R3D's back and forth.

Here's something to consider - .look files from SpeedGrade work in After Effects.

It might be possible to grade with R3D in SpeedGrade and load up the grade in After Effects (to the native R3D file) in the form of a .look file. (This is not possible in Premiere currently, however)

I haven't tried it and I may be misunderstanding the .look functionality. Even if it works as I understand, obviously it is not the most elegant solution, you will likely lose the performance of SpeedGrade, and there might be other limitations, but just a possibility that is worth exploring.

[Todd Kopriva]

One thing to keep in mind about .look files in After Effects: The Apply Color LUT effect just applies the color lookup table (LUT) part of the .look file; there are other aspects of the .look file that don't come across into After Effects. One of the SpeedGrade guys is going to do a writeup on our team blog about how to work in SpeedGrade with this limitation in mind if you're intending to go to After Effects.