I'll be honest - Dragon disappoints me

[Tom Lowe]

Well, it's weird, because since EPIC came out, and before the smaller 6k pixels of Dragon were announced , I can't recall a single Epic user posting:

"5k just isn't enough for my super 35 sensor!! This MX is CRAP! I want and need 6k NOW!"

I have been pushing for 6K since at least 2008, in fact. I have been shooting 5.6K RAW since 2008, when I started shooting TL on the Canon 5D Mark 2, so 5.6K is a baseline resolution for me. If we are talking about Bayer-pattern cameras for a clean 4K finish, you need AT LEAST 5K, just mathematically speaking, and you need 6K if you're shooting in low light. That has been my stated opinion here for something like four years.

I recently finished a film at 4K, and I can tell you, I could have definitely used a 6K camera!!!! That is why I am trying to drive home this point.. you might not think you need 6K now, but wait till you actually try to post a film at a clean 4K. Then you will be thanking the heavens for 6K.

In terms of Epic and Dragon, Jim is specifically and explicitly building this camera/sensor combination for 4K finishes. So if people don't care about 4K finishes, don't buy the Epic with the Dragon... it won't be the camera for you. But don't try to bash the camera and sensor, because some of us really, really need it. All of my upcoming projects rely on Dragon.

[Rob Ruffo]

$300 a day for epics... I charge less than that and I come with my camera... I would welcome any "visit" from unwelcome guests.

You will never break even on your investment. You are losing money at that rate. No question. You might not see it, but it's only because you are not doing your math in a realistic way.

Ask a someone who has been in the business longer or advice. I guarantee they will agree.

Let me guess - you have another day job and this is a hobby - sorry, "passion" - for you.

As for your welcoming that visit , that's very macho-cowboy of you, but I doubt you'd really welcome that visit. I also doubt that Oklahoma is anything like NYC L.A. or Montreal when it comes to these things.

[Nick Morrison]

To summarize your comment: "Red is brilliant so let's not even try to help them. Let's wait till they're done with the sensor (and its' too late) to offer any comments or suggestions" Others say basically "If you don't like it just don't buy it." I would expect more from someone whom I felt had my back, and I feel we owe Jim more too.

Dude I agree with you - its great to give RED feedback. And I'm not one to assume RED/JIM don't have their flaws. You could certainly argue that Jim's competitiveness has earned him more than his share of detractors/enemies.

However, you are making wild accusations about a piece of tech that wont be out for a year. You don't even know what the ISO performance is, and yet you are already criticizing it. And you wrote your post in a way that was designed to call attention to itself and be inflammatory. You were trying to get attention, and you did!

My point is: Red is already on their back heels. The Alex is all over the place. Every article I read raves about its low-light. RED KNOWS. They would be committing suicide if the ISO performance doesn't improve. To me, it's such a given that the low-light performance will be much better that I'm not even worried about it.

And 6k? Well, are we really even surprised? 4K was great because you could oversample out some amazing 1080p deliverables. As we enter an age where 4K is now a deliverable in and of itself, it makes sense that RED is going 6K...so you can oversample out some incredibly sharp 4K renders.

[Rob Ruffo]

Rob, you're just a whining ingrate, with no vision. You belong in the 20th century at best.
If you don't have at least 3 years to post every project, you just have no passion.
You may even be a f$%ing professional.
What's that? Other people besides yourself are involved in handling files onset and in post? You have to collaborate?
You're clearly not an artist. You just don't deserve that camera.

You know Mark I try. I asked the record label for a 2 year extension on post - but they're such visionless suits they said no. :-)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jeff I have worked on post on countless Red projects. I am a beta tester on countless post tools.

Sure Rob, I know that you do. Many of us here work on RED-related projects every day, I do. I beta test quite a bit of software too, as do many others on these forums and in this discussion.

You talk about a world, again, filled with people who "should" be a certain way. You also have an apparently less proactive and respectful approach toward you clients than I do. They are doing their best. They are not techs. I do not just throw my hands up angrily and say "whatever" when they ask for something I consider ill-advised. I make a lot of friends that way in the long run, and build trust.

I was trying to illicit constructive discussion and voice my opinion.

Hmmm... Not sure what gave you that idea, perhaps my "I don't care, I'll take their money either way." comment lead you to that conclusion. I can see where it could be interpreted that way. That's not the case though, my dealings with clients is very proactive and nothing but respectful. The point was, there are times when the client wants it a certain way, wants me to use specific equipment, etc.. Regardless of what advice I may offer or how proactive I can be. I still take them and guide them to the best of my ability. I have no problems shooting an Alexa if the client requests such a thing. If the client wants to finish 1080p, even after my consultation, so be it. Some clients don't seek advice and don't react well if it's offered.

That said, I will say that most of my clients are technical in nature. I primarily serve the high-end corporate client. Companies in various industries like software development, manufacturing, aerospace, resorts and entertainment. Most of them like gadgets and new technology. Many of them create these things. 4K acquisition is usually an easy sell, most of my corporate projects these days go beyond just shooting video. For iOS and Android apps and content to satisfy the latest mobile screens, especially the latest tablets, 1080p is not enough. We know it, the client knows it and they know their tech-savvy customers know it.

Well, it's weird, because since EPIC came out, and before the smaller 6k pixels of Dragon were announced , I can't recall a single Epic user posting:

"5k just isn't enough for my super 35 sensor!! This MX is CRAP! I want and need 6k NOW!"

If they had said that, they'd have been howled at for being a whining ingrate!!!

..Some of us just want more and can find a way to use more. We have clients who want more. Ideas of how we can use more if it were there. If RED makes it, we'll find a way to put it to use.

RED makes cameras, which are tools that can be used in so many ways. Not everyone here shoots the same type of projects, works on the same type of productions, etc.. In my current world with the majority of the clients I have, there's not enough resolution. If RED were to make the EPIC-617 panoramic 28K camera available tomorrow, I would order it the first second I could. Can you imagine what can be done with resolution like that? Think of corporate lobby spaces, luxury auto showrooms, upscale resorts, casinos, hotels, etc.. Places where we could install 23-foot long seamless video walls at 100dpi, where people could walk within 6 to 8 feet of them and not be conscious of pixelated detail... That's just one little use for a camera like that.

IMO, there's no such thing as too much resolution. It's an inevitable process where we'll eventually progress to the point where pixels are indistinguishable at any finish and presentation size. Perhaps even eliminating the concept of "pixels" altogether at some point in the future.

[Mark Pugh]

I recently finished a film at 4K, and I can tell you, I could have definitely used a 6K camera!!!! That is why I am trying to drive home this point.. you might not think you need 6K now, but wait till you actually try to post a film at a clean 4K. Then you will be thanking the heavens for 6K.

I'll be thanking you, Tom, for sure, if in the life of the Dragon sensor, I'm shooting even 5 percent of my features, TVCs, etc for a 4k master.

But wait... I've seen 4k screened at Red, shot at 4k on a Red One, and it looked crazy sharp. Everyone said so.

Nah. Couldn't have been.

[Mark Pugh]

As David Mullen said, it's about balance.
It's not just about resolution.
Red should be aiming to make the best sensor in all parameters. I'm sure they are.

[BRANDON JAMESON]

What we really wanted was very good performance at extreme high ISOs. It's not every shoot that needs this, but it does open up possibilities that would have been expensive or impossible to do without it. (I'm NOT advocating doing away with lights, just using lower amp heads in tough locations where power and the ability to disturb local residents are at a premium.)

We also wanted a bigger field of view. Give us full frame. That's cool, and useful.

Give us even more precise color fidelity. There is no end to how good color rendition can be. More of that is always better.

Instead the main touted feature is even higher pixel density, and "6K".

6K is a problem. Its' not a good thing. 5K already nearly chokes most fo our workstations here, and we never, EVER say "Gee I wish this was higher resolution" Computer tech is advancing slowly these days. It's not just our computers, but the computers of all the people we hand in footage to that would have to be upgraded. My head hurst just thinking about it. If anything we would prefer slightly FEWER pixels per square inch of field of view, not more. Or just keep it the same.

Most camera makers have understood that the "megapixel race" has become silly. In my personal opinion, at the current 5K, Red should too.

I think proof is that there is very little excitement over Dragon. Epic solved a real problems ("Gee, I love my Red, but I wish it were lighter and started up faster, and that 3K and 2K slomo is cool, I wish it were more and full-frame)") and got/gets everybody excited. Mx upgrade also solved many very real problems with the old M sensor, as every Red one D.P. had a time when they wished they had more useable high ISOs with nicer-looking and less noise.

Dragon seems to mainly aim to solve an imaginary problem of lack of resolution that no one is really having, not even if you use an Epic for high-end stills work.

WIth MX and Epic all in the community were clamoring with excitement and anticipation. Dragon? Let's face it, not really.

I say this with the best of intentions. It's not too late for Dragon to be "subject to change".

WOrd on the street is that Dragon is rather disappointed in you too, Rob Ruffo.

[Tom Lowe]

I'll be thanking you, Tom, for sure, if in the life of the Dragon sensor, I'm shooting even 5 percent of my features, TVCs, etc for a 4k master.

But wait... I've seen 4k screened at Red, shot at 4k on a Red One, and it looked crazy sharp. Everyone said so.

Nah. Couldn't have been.

There is a science and mathematics behind how a Bayer pattern works. Don't take my word for it.

[Mark Pugh]

There is a science and mathematics behind how a Bayer pattern works. Don't take my word for it.

Sure. There's perfectionism in a 4k debayer to worry about, and of course there are other things, that affect hundreds of production situations every week, right now.
No one here has said that resolution doesn't matter.
Rob's concern, in this thread, is that resolution might come before all other considerations.
That sounds like a pretty reasonable concern for an Epic owner who loves his camera, is happy with the resolution, but has a range of thoughts about what he's like from his camera into the future.
Especially when it's not resolution that's the MX's weak point.
He, like David Mullen, wants thoughtful balance.

Is that really worth arguing with?