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  1. #1 GREAT workflow discovered and tested 
    REDuser Sponsor Jay A. Kelley's Avatar
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    To keep people from wasteing their time, let me say up front this (For now) is a PC workflow. And... It's not available now, but it will be.

    The cineform command line app won't work a whole lot longer as I believe it's no longer available until Jim says so. Also build 14 will most likely not be compatible with this program.

    But I was able to continue my tests on it for now in order to find a workflow so that I knew where I would be heading when it came back.

    It's possible that RED may come out with their own command line app, but they may not make it AVI/Cineform friendly, and to me that's important.

    It's also important to note that Cineform's app will grow and become more useful. It's main purpose is to change the R3D file to a Cineform AVI file. Wether that be RAW or a high quality 4:2:2: file. For this workflow, we're staying with RAW.

    Step One: Using REDCine, analysis your footage and what you want to use. You would write down the file names, and in/out points. Don't do anything to the files themselves.

    Step Two: Using the command line app (When it becomes available) enter files and in/out points (I am also assuming that when it comes back, in the future, you will be able to enter more than one file).

    Important Note: The render speed of this app is about 4x-5x FASTER than the CURRENT REDCine (I say current cause I fully expect REDCine to get faster in the future as well).

    Step Three: Edit in Adobe Premiere. The speed is impressive, editing and dissolves all happen in real time. It's important to note you are NOT editing with proxys here, you are using 16 bit CINEFORM RAW files, so you are cutting the files you will be color correcting later on. Nice... From my limited testing, I had no speed issues, and the transitions (As long as you use Cineform's and NOT Premiere's) were real time also.

    Step Four: Color Correct the footage. I spent some time with Synthetic Apature Color Finesse 2. This is a VERY impressive piece of software. If you own After Effects 6.5 or higher you can get an upgrade of this program for $375.00. The plug ins work for both Premiere Pro and After Effects (After Effects is needed when you want to do masks, which it does very well in combination with the tracking software in there.)

    Once that's done you can do sound work in whatever you wish, and then output the file you want.

    Okay, so it's not a super-duper high end Scratch system, but for those of us looking for the best quality on a budget I think we're off to a good start.

    Here are my priced:

    Computer (quad system, 8800 gtx, Raid 0 drive, system drive, 4gb RAM)
    $2,200.00
    Monitor (30" dell) $1,200.00
    Cineform 2k (No, I don't edit 4k.. Sorry) $1,499
    Color Finesse: $375 (Upgrade)
    Adobe Studio: $799 (Upgrade)

    Total for basic system: $6,073.00

    Interestingly, if you match the same specs with a MAC then you will be within $200 of the same cost!

    Personally, I like Cineform a LOT more than Prorez. And I believe in my limited opinion that Color Finesse is faster and more stable.

    What's exciting to me about this workflow are a couple of things:

    Speed, the app renders the files pretty fast, so you get to editing quicker. And the files are still in RAW form which allows you to make your changes after you editing with no additional steps.. I like that.

    Quality, everything here is 16bit, and 32 floating point deep color (Whatever all that means) and so you are not giving up anything.. You have a robust codec that can handle some serious quality.

    Financially, there is not enough savings here to go PC cause of price. Of course I left out some large items like a monster RAID array and an LTO-4 backup, but those are not "mac" or "pc" items.

    BUT if you are already on PC and you are comfortable there, then I am happy to tell you that once Jim gives the "ok" you will have access to a rockin workflow that should do your RED proud!

    It's a wonderful time to be alive!

    Jay

    PS forgive the spelling errors and grammer mistakes, I am so tired this is all I can do and I wanted to get it out for you
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  2. #2  
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    Very cool.

    And 32 bit floating point in AE means you have something just as powerful as a daVinci, or what have you, for color correcting (just not real time).

    I look forward to seeing how this workflow evolves with upcoming RedCine and Cineform releases.
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  3. #3  
    REDuser Sponsor Jay A. Kelley's Avatar
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    That begs a question. I wonder if using color correction in After Effects is BETTER than doing it in Premiere Pro.

    Davids? Can you chime in here.. This is important.

    Jay
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  4. #4  
    Senior Member Frank Weeks's Avatar
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    BUT if you are already on PC and you are comfortable there, then I am happy to tell you that once Jim gives the "ok" you will have access to a rockin workflow that should do your RED proud!
    Thank you Jay,for keeping us up to date.

    This is great news.

    Frank
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  5. #5  
    Senior Member Steve Sherrick's Avatar
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    I believe you will get cleaner color correction in After Effects and a cleaner render too. I'm experimenting with finishing via After Effects after many disappointing experiences with FCP. Actually, disappointing is probably too strong a word. Final Cut can do a fine job. Things just seem cleaner in After Effects, but time consuming as well. I'm trying to follow Stu Maschwitz's workflow.

    Steve
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  6. #6  
    REDuser Sponsor Jay A. Kelley's Avatar
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    There's a good chance you are right, but I would want to hear from Cineform on this first, and Color Finesse. I will check with them tomorrow.

    I am aware there is suppose to be a way to take a premiere project and throw it into after effects.. If this worked.. That would rule

    But I am still not sure Premiere won't do the job. The bit depth is the same in both programs


    Jay
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  7. #7  
    Senior Member Steve Sherrick's Avatar
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    You might be right. I don't use Premiere so I can't say. All I know is that After Effects can process cleaner than FCP. I use Automatic Duck to import the FCP project into AE. The nice thing is that Colorista and Looks Suite settings come across, so I can do preliminary CC in FCP and then expand on it in AE.

    Steve
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  8. #8  
    Very cool, thanks Jay..

    This has got to be the best workflow thread I've read so far (for my needs..)
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  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay A. Kelley View Post
    Important Note: The render speed of this app is about 4x-5x FASTER than the CURRENT REDCine (I say current cause I fully expect REDCine to get faster in the future as well).
    Good grief! Is that with the better deBayer they introduced? 4x-5x faster is wonderful.

    Ah well... let's hope Cineform gets the OK by NAB. Was Red aware of just how much faster it was before they shut it down? This is crazy. But who cares, whatever crazy bargain Red made to get us everything that makes up the camera... it was obviously worth it and we're thankful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay A. Kelley View Post
    There's a good chance you are right, but I would want to hear from Cineform on this first, and Color Finesse. I will check with them tomorrow.

    I am aware there is suppose to be a way to take a premiere project and throw it into after effects.. If this worked.. That would rule
    It totally works. Beware though that if you start to make major editing changes, then conforming these changes in After Effects is a pain. I did a 10-minute short film using that method and re-editing it SUUUUUUCKED. Music videos are about the maximum length you can do without going nuts. If you can, try to do it shot by shot and send back to "finish" in Premiere if you can.

    In terms of color correction in After Effects vs Premiere, After Effects has historically been way superior in both mathematical quality and breadth of features. Premiere is catching up though. Probably the same in terms of calculations it does when it renders (internally both can be 32-bit). If only they'd let you draw masks for power windows and give you adjustment layers in Premiere...

    Bruce Allen
    www.boacinema.com
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  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by stevesherrick View Post
    You might be right. I don't use Premiere so I can't say. All I know is that After Effects can process cleaner than FCP.
    Agreed, there is no comparison.

    CLARIFICATION EDIT: I do think FCP is particularly bad. Historically it was horrific, they cleaned it up a bit but IMHO it still sucks. The new Premiere is not as bad from what I've seen so far.

    But on the other hand, there are programs that process cleaner than After Effects. All of those crazy scaling options in Scratch / RedCine for example are there for a reason and I wish they were there in After Effects.

    That said, I personally think the quality difference between FCP and AE is great, but AE vs Scratch / Toxik / Inferno / Fire / Quantel / Shake / Nuke is far more minor.

    Bruce Allen
    www.boacinema.com
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