frustrating meeting with Post houses

[Björn Benckert]

Graeme, Why can't we have something like LogC in the epics? as an alternative
I Find the LogC to be default "log", when I trough a lut editor on it and just the preset "log to lin" I see the set on my screen. When I do the same with REDLogFilm i see red, then do some tweaking and then I get close to home. I think it would be vice to have both.

[Graeme Nattress]

REDLogFilm works well, makes great images and adheres to the standard for such "cineon" log encodes (which Log C does not). It linearizes correctly with the default settings in compositing apps too with their log2lin nodes.

Graeme

[Bruce Allen]

REDLogFilm works well, makes great images and adheres to the standard for such "cineon" log encodes. It linearizes correctly with the default settings in compositing apps too with their log2lin nodes.

Graeme

Except for After Effects, which has awful settings as default for log2lin...

Hence I just use the Arri LogC LUT which you can download from their site.

Yes, I could concoct a good LUT, but VFX artists themselves are not really supposed to do that. We like to use a standard, if it is available.

This is why I think RED should provide a LUT, like Arri does.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Björn Benckert]

REDLogFilm works well, makes great images and adheres to the standard for such "cineon" log encodes (which Log C does not). It linearizes correctly with the default settings in compositing apps too with their log2lin nodes.

Graeme

Even In flame?

It would be nice to go to LogC when mixing with german HD material or such... :)

[Graeme Nattress]

Bruce, I don't have any idea where Adobe get their defaults for cineon interpretation from. They should be black=95, white=685 and gamma = 0.6, which happens to be the defaults in Nuke and Shake. Luts are not the best things for linearizing cineon code values into floating point linear light space. You can see that for yourself in Shake:

Take a RLF file, add a float node, then log2lin. You'll get a very linear light looking image, so add a gamma (about 2.2) node to see it better on your monitor and you get a reasonable image.
Take a LogC file, add a float node, then Arri's LogC 2 Linear LUT (pick the right one for your ISO, in my case ISO800). You'll get a very dark looking image, so add a gamma (about 2.2) node to see it better on your monitor and you are left with a wrong looking image.

You can see exactly why this happens because the LUT has a max output value of 1024 say, but the math of the inverse log curve should be putting the highlights around 4.0 so by being an integer LUT, it gives you an image about 1/4 as bright as it should be.

From what I can see, the Adobe cineon math works if you tell it to use gamma 0.6 but I'd appreciate an Adobe linear light compositing expert to check that out. I know both Nuke and Shake work correctly with default settings.

For Flame I'll have to ask Autodesk as I don't have that app here to test.

As for how RLF works - it's very first outing for test was at Co3 for the grading of Pirates 4. We just slapped on one of their default film print emulation luts and the resulting image was correct and pleasing - in other words one of their standard PFE luts worked great because RLF is engineered correctly to spec.

Graeme

[Bruce Allen]

Graeme - I agree that it works great in Nuke.

However in After Effects: Adobe's 32bit linear light compositing works great in theory but is awful in practice. It's very slow and when you RAM preview, they store the full 32-bit values in RAM... so you can only view a few seconds. Also, it has a terrible color management mode which tries and fails to do the color management in realtime, meaning you can't get realtime playback even on a fast 8-core Mac Pro with tons of RAM.

So we work 90% of the time in 16bit mode, not linear.

In that workflow, it is definitely easier to work with Alexa footage:
1. Create an adjustment layer on the top with the 3D LUT effect, with Arri LUT from their website
2. Do compositing
3. When you want to render out: turn off the LUT and hit render
4. Finisher imports your file and it drops in perfectly with all the other LogC stuff

That's why I suggest a standard LUT for After Effects, Flame etc, downloadable from the Red website would be awesome.

Even if the LUT isn't perfect, that's fine. Most of the time we just use it for viewing.

Arri has changed their LUTs over time to match color science changes (they're now on version 3) and that's cool - I can just choose what version I want to download and I'm good.

As for how RLF works - it's very first outing for test was at Co3 for the grading of Pirates 4. We just slapped on one of their default film print emulation luts and the resulting image was correct and pleasing - in other words one of their standard PFE luts worked great because RLF is engineered correctly to spec.

Yes, RedLogFilm currently works well for big post houses, who have their own LUTs.

Anyway, need to try RedLogFilm in After Effects with Cineon Converter set to 0.6 gamma.

But I mean... the only way I know to do this is because I am on this thread on RedUser.

99% of the other small post houses just get RED footage and have no clue, sadly.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Graeme Nattress]

Ah, you want a view LUT..... Working on that for you.

AE Linear light is a bit funky for sure :-)

Graeme

[Bruce Allen]

Ah, you want a view LUT..... Working on that for you.

AE Linear light is a bit funky for sure :-)

Graeme

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Mark Toia]

hey.. its hard for me to agree with Alexa PRO RES workflow as Im a RED man....

But PRORES workflow is all I need. I can see the attraction for sure... Especially if it was a 4k PRORES with the REDLOGFILM log look.

I do all my R3D post in house.. I also get screwed when people transcoding my R3D's to some crap DPX lut... hate it hate it hate it....

[HD Hildebrand]

I have the same issues with Toronto Post houses, Bob. I used to love working with them. Historically, there have been some great graders in this town. But now, most of these houses just generate horrible prores one-lights with baked in colours and then try to grade that. Then when they can't do a good job with that they blame the cmera or the DP. I just end up grading it in house because I've lost all faith in them.

However, this is a reality. We need simple solutions for situations like this. Unfortunately some of them just aren't there yet.

Just got back from a meeting with a major post facility here in Toronto. I was there as the VFX supervisor for a feature film that will be shot next month. The choice of camera was not decided on prior to the meeting but of course I was gunning for the Epic. Well, unfortunately the Alexa won out because of what I felt were misconceptions. I believe these guys were looking for the path of least resistance which means more money for them. They made the claim of the Alexa looks so much more filmic, more latitude, less noise, less cost of storage, blah blah blah. Talked to the colourist and he loves working on the Alexa footage because it's so easy.... Needless to say, I was beaten up and left dejected. At one point the guy there even made a crack about Oakley sunglasses! Quite honestly, these post houses are soon to be dinosaurs... sorry for the rant.... long live RED!