Matte box advantages

[Jonas Klittmark]

Hi guys,

As I'm waiting for my Scarlet to finally be delivered (yay!) I am contemplating whether or not to invest in a matte box for it. I will be using Zeiss ZF lenses and a Tokina 11-16. I realize that the general notion is that I should be using a matte box now that I'm stepping it up to the professional level, but even so, I want to understand why.

On the downside, in addition to adding cost it adds weight and bulk. Also it annihilates any lingering hopes of shooting guerilla style with the Scarlet (not that they're that great to begin with).

So what are the pros?
- Removing flares - Well, I get it but it's not been a huge concern for me so far, maybe because a) the Zeiss lenses are fairly resistant b) flagging it if it's bad is not that hard c) I like the look of it sometimes
- Allowing general filter use - Well, I am hoping that my current set of screw-on 77 mm filters (ND, vari-ND and pola) will do the trick. Maybe I'm missing something?
- Sliding graduated filters - OK, this seems great and is something I have been missing!
- Contrast - this is where it gets interesting. Aside from obvious flares already mentioned, does it also have an impact on contrast in general? Some of the washed out sunny footage I see from amateurs seems to lack a lot of contrast without having obvious flares. Would it have been fixed by using a matte box?
- Anything else? OK, for paid work I get the "I want to look professional"-factor, but I will be shooting my own Indie film(s) so it's not a factor for me right now.

Sorry to post such a basic question but I couldn't find the answer by looking through any current threads. Please be nice. :)

Best regards,
Jonas

[Eric-taner]

Yes you got it Jonas its all about the "I want to look professional"-factor, even do many don't like to be honest in that way. i did many tests with, and with out a matte box, and unless you don't have a very difficult light situation, you will never see a difference.
so save that money for something that will really make your movie look different.

[daniel caruso]

haha, so true eric, i love the look of my mattbox on, it just..completes the camera.

But to be fair, you are used still lenses where you can screw on filters. This conversation would be different if you were using cine lenses, which you can't screw on filters. I use PL lenses so any form of ND or grad etc. needs to be in a filter tray, leaving me to always use my mattebox. This past week I had some over head practicals, so when shooting up, the flood gave me a slight glow to the top frame. It was not needed for the shot. I urged everyone to not touch my lights =], and simply dropped the eyebrow down, cut it right out.

For me and my set up, it is essential and i love having it on, it wraps the lens and holds my filters. See if it applies to your setup and you can make the call. Seems like if you aren't using 4x filters and can screw them on, and want to be somewhat low key, perhaps its not in your need yet. And while we are on matteboxes, I just want to point out the value of a good quality mattebox, there is a big difference in functionality between the brands. Good luck Jonas!

- edit, as a side note, do some test and maybe look into IRND. I used a 1.2 on a 1.5 the other day for 9 stops and everything looked great! Just another suggestion =].

[Aaron Fronk]

+1 on this. Really trying to figure out if a matte is that important for my needs. We shoot guerrilla all the time, so I'm trying to remove excessive weight.

[M.D. Hilton]

While it's true you can use flags to cut off unwanted flare the matte box gives you advantages over this.

One: time. It's so much easier to adjust a flag on the matte box than to move a c-stand or light stand over and put a flag into position. Over the course of a day this can save quite a bit of time.

Two: space. I don't know about you but shooting in NYC I frequently have to shoot in tiny apartments. Often times the light stands are just out of frame and adding an additional c-stand for a flag (in addition to whatever ones you're using for lighting choices) becomes problematic. If you're shooting in large studio spaces a matte box will be less important (though that top flag is still extremely helpful for taking out flare of the overhead lights...)

Three: choices. If you're using a flag rigged on a c-stand that flag is also going to cut off light that you may want spilling onto a part of your visible scene. Whether its bounced light or whatever, suddenly the scene isn't lit the way you intended. Many times this will be acceptable but other times you'll have to spend more time adjusting to get it back to what you want.

Three: Shooting exteriors. The matte box does a much better job on exteriors of eliminating flare than a screw on. I don't know how many times I've had to change my shot because the screw on wasn't doing the job I wanted.

I used to shoot without a matte box but I was glad when I started borrowing a friend's because it saved me so much time on shoots and just made my life easier. I shoot small so we don't have that many people on set so any time/stress we can save by not having to fiddle with flare is invaluable.

The filter aspect of the matte box isn't that big of a deal to me at the moment but once I start using cine lenses more often it will be.

[Justin McAleece]

When I'm not using a matte box I always have a French flag standing by and pop it on when needed. Sometimes that can be the best of both worlds. here's a link to a random one I found. http://www.lowinglight.com/products.shtml

[Phil Holland]

It's an essential part of light control for me. Shooting in daylight and artificial conditions it really helps eliminate flare, glare, and increase your general contrast in your imagery. Still lenses in general have pretty great control over light travelling within the lens, however if you shoot from f/1.2-f/4 you'll notice a contrast bump under certain lighting conditions and it can protect you from unwanted light entering the entrance pupil.

Speedy filter swaps are nice and you will be shooting with ND filtration frequently if you're shooting on Red. Depending on how you achieve this ND + IR filtration, Hot Mirror/ND, IRND, etc. you can have 1-3 trays for filtration. The interesting thing is if you're using still glass you can combine using slide in filtration and screw on filtration.

Remember, anytime light is hitting your lens it's contaminating the image.

To play devil's advocate, I don't mind shooting naked sometimes at let light travel across the lens. Remember still lenses often come with lens hoods, you could use a clamp on french flag, or even gaff tape and some black wrap to block out stray light. All of those options are cheaper than a matte box.

Don't buy into the "you need one to make your rig look professional". There's many practical and functional reasons to have a matte box to help with your image quality control. You're going to be shooting with a rig in the $15k-$25k range or even more. People will get it.

[Lliam Worthington]

Hey Jonas, your situation sounds quite similar to mine. Shooting an Indie feature. Need to be able to go Guerilla. I prefer not to have the weight etc.

Another point is that Mattebox filters are more expensive than screw ons. And another bonus to no Mattebox for Scarlet set up, is that you don't have to worry about a riser to bring your Scarlet up to standard height. So there are a fair few cost savings.

I have gone the screw in route also. You'll probably want to seriously consider some IR ND's though and the Vari's are supposed to be atrocious on Scarlet and 4k. There is a good screw in 77mm route - via the Tiffen Indie Pros which is the way I went. If you haven't already read up on the IR ND's, it's definitely worth reading up on here on RU.

All that said, dropping in filters fast and easily with a Matte Box is great obviously, grad filters as you mentioned, and I can see why generally it's an essential pro tool, as Phil is right of course about the importance of controlling light. And one other thing that I know might sound a bit ridiculous, is that it's not just clients who see pro when it comes to Matteboxes, it's some actors. Some really do respond to a "Film" camera look.

I will certainly get myself a Mattebox sometime after my Indie is over, if I'm not living on the streets that is, and i can afford something decent and the filters to justify it. But for now all I've done to help with flare control is buy a $35 dollar pretend piece of crapbox off ebay, which gives me few basic flags, that I can also drape/cover further if required. Dirt cheap. Super light, height adjustable and may even just help with the odd actor lol :) At the very least it should help stop cops from asking me for a permit for my professional production... "Sorry sir, carry on, I didn't see your mattebox" :D

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Filmcity-Mat...ht_1861wt_1348
(Note mine goes up to 80mm fronts - which just fits my widest lens - this one is only 77mm - but there's plenty of 80's around)

Best

Lliam

[Peter Majtan]

Just to point out another issue - cost. My lenses have (so far) 3 different front diameters - that means I would need 3 sets of screw-in filters and one more for every other diameter introduced. Good quality filters don't have that much difference in cost between screw-in and cine version - maybe 1/3. So even having to buy 2 sets will cost me more, let alone 3 or more sets... And sandwiching too many filters will result in vignetting of the image...

Just something to think about...

Peter

[Jonas Klittmark]

Great feedback, thanks a bunch guys! I am definitely learning here...

One: time. It's so much easier to adjust a flag on the matte box than to move a c-stand or light stand over and put a flag into position.

That's fair but I wonder if the time saved in setting up the flag is countered by time spent messing with the matte box in combination with still lenses? My lenses all have different front diameters and some of them (particularly the Zeiss 100mm f/2) move quite a bit during focus change etc. I'm not familiar with all the specifics of how to deal with this but it seems to end up with either screwing the matte box on and off of every lens, or changing donuts if it's a swing-away etc.?

Maybe matte-box is not a great combo with still lenses period?