4k / 2k PRO RES / DNxHD MODULE - who wants one.

[Paul E. McCarthy]

It's not that bad -- ProRes 4444 is something like 330 Mbps I think, close to HDCAM-SR 4:2:2 (440 Mbps), which was the most common acquisition format for dramatic TV series shooting digitally (on the Genesis and F35) until the Alexa came along. I just shot a whole season of "Smash" in ProRes 4444 and color-corrected it in a D.I. suite on a 40' screen and didn't have any problems. But then, I don't do much blowing up and stabilizing. Obviously if one were going to do a lot of image resizing, a higher resolution image like from a Red would be better.

David you are an ASC cinematographer I cant really argue with anything you say. Your right its not that bad but it doesnt come close to scaling an R3D. In my limited Indie career where I have shot 1 300k feature on the Alexa in Pro Res 4444 in 17days with a skeleton crew, running Steadicam all over the windy streets of new york getting kicked out of locations and stealing shots I would of loved that extra resolution that I would have received from the epic. Also I'm an owner operator that is highly invested in the RED1/Epic, RED Rockets, Scratch, a 4 pack of 256SSD. So the last thing that I need is people telling producers that Pro Res is ok. For me I'd rather own and operate a $50k 5k camera and a $5k red rocket that can transcode in realtime instead of $88k HD camera that you still have to drop a lut on for dailies, probably not in realtime either, i may be wrong.
All that said I don't consider the Alexa or Pro Res 4444 the best choice for Independent Digital Cinema.

[Robert Horwell]

David you are an ASC cinematographer I cant really argue with anything you say. Your right its not that bad but it doesnt come close to scaling an R3D. In my limited Indie career where I have shot 1 300k feature on the Alexa in Pro Res 4444 in 17days with a skeleton crew, running Steadicam all over the windy streets of new york getting kicked out of locations and stealing shots I would of loved that extra resolution that I would have received from the epic. Also I'm an owner operator that is highly invested in the RED1/Epic, RED Rockets, Scratch, a 4 pack of 256SSD. So the last thing that I need is people telling producers that Pro Res is ok. For me I'd rather own and operate a $50k 5k camera and a $5k red rocket that can transcode in realtime instead of $88k HD camera that you still have to drop a lut on for dailies, probably not in realtime either, i may be wrong.
All that said I don't consider the Alexa or Pro Res 4444 the best choice for Independent Digital Cinema.

Lets not forget that you can shoot RAW on the Alexa also . It didn't do to badly for HUGO which was very VFX heavy?...plenty of shows, Downton Abbey for one, shoot pro res and it looks very nice indeed.

[Paul E. McCarthy]

Lets not forget that you can shoot RAW on the Alexa also . It didn't do to badly for HUGO which was very VFX heavy?...plenty of shows, Downton Abbey for one, shoot pro res and it looks very nice indeed.

I dont think you can shoot RAW on the Alexa, you can shoot ARRI RAW, and not to the camera but to Codex box or a Obi box that doubles the weight of the camera and turns it into a monster. I also think that Arri Raw is uncompressed DPX and its only 2700 lines horizontal. And I think, it takes 1.5 hours to download 30minutes of a Codex mag. I don't consider it in the same class as a 5k R3D, but I may be wrong.

[Robert Horwell]

Maybe you should look at the Gemini 444. Lets not get into a EPIC V Alexa debate, but at the same time , let's be sure we know what we are saying before we say it. I own both cameras and i can tell you categorically that they both have their virtues and flaws. Both are shooting award winning features and TV, but they are different animals in many ways. All i am saying is before the Pro-res, raw, arriraw thing gets embarrassing and ends up being pasted onto CML, make sure you know what you are talking about.

[Paul E. McCarthy]

Maybe you should look at the Gemini 444. Lets not get into a EPIC V Alexa debate, but at the same time , let's be sure we know what we are saying before we say it. I own both cameras and i can tell you categorically that they both have their virtues and flaws. Both are shooting award winning features and TV, but they are different animals in many ways. All i am saying is before the Pro-res, raw, arriraw thing gets embarrassing and ends up being pasted onto CML, make sure you know what you are talking about.

Is that a threat or something ?


All Im saying is that before we all go buy a $XXXX Pro Res module to shoot 1080 pro res with, think about your investment in RED Digital Cinema products so far.
In my world its better to stay R3D and transcode.

[Robert Horwell]

Is that a threat or something ?


All saying is that before we all go buy a $XXXX Pro Res module to shoot 1080 pro res with, think about your investment in RED Digital Cinema products so far.
In my world its better to stay R3D and transcode.

Paul, please don't read into my post and make something out of it that is not there. I made a simple statement, just make sure you know what you are talking about before you make statements. I certainly don't make threats, if anything i was trying to protect you.

[Tom Gleeson]

It is not productive to say that one process is definitely better than another. It is always about the context. I want a pro res module because it gives me choices. Some jobs and clients will take advantage of RAW while others are best served with a pro res video file.

The ideal is RAW of course and if the client has the money and the smarts to follow proper post procedure everybone is happy. Others are just frustrated and/ or ignorant of the RAW workflow and are just likely to f*#k it up and never want to work with Red again. I like to keep clients ( even annoying ones) happy. I need their money

[Max M.]

Exactly what tom says, for sure its better to have a 5k raw file, we know thats better. But sometimes you don't need the best, i just need something that looks good without space for alot grading and changing. So there is a place for a 1920x1080 prores module in the current market, now and for the next few years. Clients like the alexa because of relative small filesize and the offloadspeed and playback the clips directly on any decent macbook without transcoding, buffering or extra hardware.That is what defines the camera choice for some clients... So if red would give us this module, we could also offer that ease if they want... more options, more use for the camera :)

[Häakon]

In my world its better to stay R3D and transcode.

I think in many of our worlds that is the case... that's why we're here, and that's why we're invested (in more than one way) into RED's philosophy. But it is important to remember that there are other "worlds" out there which are equally as valid for right now than just whatever ones we may personally deal with.

There is a hell of a lot of content produced that is broadcasted once and will never be shown again. It doesn't need futureproofing, it doesn't need a 4K master. Not everything is the Hobbit. I know what Jim is pushing for and I thank god he's pushing, because none of this 4K turnover would be happening at the rate (or at the price point) it is if it were not for him. But there's no reason to stifle other people's workflows by denying them a CHOICE. If a Prores module or whatever is not for you, who cares? You already have a camera that shoots 5K RAW and could very well be doing 6K by the end of the year. Live and let live.

[Robert Horwell]

Great points guys, there are so many workflows, so many clients with different needs.
There is also another potential solution. The Blackmagic Hyperdeck Shuttle and studio. The shuttle is a rechargable unit that mounts onto the camera, takes an SDI input and converts to other formats. The shuttle to
Uncompressed QuickTime, Avid DNxHD QuickTime, Avid DNxHD MXF, all very popular formats. The studio which is a rackmount unit converts to: Uncompressed QuickTime, Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) QuickTime, Avid DNxHD QuickTime, Avid.DNxHD MXF. I am investing in the shuttle unit X 2. Many clients ask for Avid DNxHD and Arri charge 3890 Euro for the licence key!!!.. ( love the RED philosophy, upgrades are a god send )...The Hyperdeck will mount on my RED cameras and Arri so it's a bit of a no brainer. Uncompressed QT is also a very useful format. With so many 3rd parties providing alternatives, i couldn't blame RED for not developing a module. Best of all the Hyperdeck is $395.00!!!...insane. I do not work neither am i affiliated with Blackmagic. best of all i can give them the 4/5K RAW files to archive or conform , grade at their leisure.