Thoughts and feedback for these three tripod+fluid head combinations

[Rob Anderson]

I wanted to get some time with the Miller before commenting again, but as Steve already said above, I messaged him within just a few days of receiving the kit and told him I really appreciated the suggestion. The Miller is a great buy and quite honestly, does everything exactly how I want it to. Great product and it's a solid, sturdy rig.

I am using the setup in two configurations, one with a decked out RED One attached (handles, original EVF, 5" screen, v-lock batteries, lots of connections, Teradek wireless, rails, 18-85 RP Zoom plus bracket and handle, RP matte box, etc. The Miller handles it just beautifully. I bought the Miller offset quick plate for this purpose.

The second setup is with an Epic (currently rented, but our own will be here shortly). We're using the Epic, the quick lock, a dovetail plate, 5" touch, and a gaping hole where our side handle and REDmote are waiting to be placed (please come quick!). Even with the 300mm attached, the combination is just superb. Does everything wonderfully. Also cleans up nice after a trek into the dusty, dirty, SW desert.

Finally, for mobile work, we're keeping the One in the studio and carrying only the Epic for now. For that combination, we're using the Gitzo Monopod 5561T and going very light-weight. Great combination for our purposes. Couldn't be happier. We have the E Mantis shoulder system to use, but have not had the need just yet.

Going to buy the Miller locking wheels dolly system to add to the tripod soon. I really enjoy that setup.

Thanks again everyone for their recommendations. Very helpful.

**UPDATE: Unfortunately see next post below.

[Rob Anderson]

Well this is a bummer. Received our unit the very end of January. Up until today, we were very impressed. Now just 3 weeks after receipt, the head is cracked and is unstable. We have no idea how the head cracked. It has been mounted and locked down on the Miller dolly transport system for weeks.

First sign of damage; Today I locked down the wheels and was holding the neck of the tripod while my AC bumped the extended arm when she removed the RED One. I was standing on the opposite side, and felt a light shock as the One rails caught the edge of the handle and bumped the unit a bit. Thought absolutely nothing of it. After returning from dinner, discovered the handle loose and cracked. Head unstable. Fissure lines around supporting beam. Small piece of the head directly underneath the tripod. Impossible the damage could have been there before and our studio has soft wood floors. Any heavy drops would show. Absolutely zero chance the tripod was knocked over and today, only myself had the keys. No chance we could have locked down the One and used the handle, without noticing this kind of damage earlier.

Disappointed to say the least. Just filed a support form on the Miller website. Waiting to hear back now. Hope Miller will resolve this.

If the heads crack like this under completely un-extraordinary conditions (bumped by a RED One!?), I can't even imagine them holding up to field work or rentals. Very glad we didn't hike up the side of a mountain with this (that trip isn't happening until the beginning of April).

I guess this is what happens when something comes into contact with an immovable force like RED...

[Tehben Dean]

I have an ARROW 55 and love it.

I will say that heads in this weight range are not ideal for a RED1 with heavy lesns IMHO.
I originally used it for a RED1/RPZ 18-85 combo and while it worked, if you bumped the camera or even use it in windy conditions you are likely to have some locked off shots not turn out perfectly smooth. I imagine it will be PERFECT for EPIC.

It does look like Steve has been happy with it even with heavy loads though.

[Rob Anderson]

I have an ARROW 55 and love it.

I will say that heads in this weight range are not ideal for a RED1 with heavy lesns IMHO.
I originally used it for a RED1/RPZ 18-85 combo and while it worked, if you bumped the camera or even use it in windy conditions you are likely to have some locked off shots not turn out perfectly smooth. I imagine it will be PERFECT for EPIC.

It does look like Steve has been happy with it even with heavy loads though.

Thus far all of our footage has been top-notch. Looks great. Very steady and pleasantly surprised by the quality and supporting strength of the head and the sticks.

Until today. The cracking of the handle and one of the supporting beams is shocking. Really surprised by that kind of damage.

[Steve Gibby]

Well this is a bummer. Received our unit the very end of January. Up until today, we were very impressed. Now just 3 weeks after receipt, the head is cracked and is unstable. We have no idea how the head cracked. It has been mounted and locked down on the Miller dolly transport system for weeks.

First sign of damage; Today I locked down the wheels and was holding the neck of the tripod while my AC bumped the extended arm when she removed the RED One. I was standing on the opposite side, and felt a light shock as the One rails caught the edge of the handle and bumped the unit a bit. Thought absolutely nothing of it. After returning from dinner, discovered the handle loose and cracked. Head unstable. Fissure lines around supporting beam. Small piece of the head directly underneath the tripod. Impossible the damage could have been there before and our studio has soft wood floors. Any heavy drops would show. Absolutely zero chance the tripod was knocked over and today, only myself had the keys. No chance we could have locked down the One and used the handle, without noticing this kind of damage earlier.

Disappointed to say the least. Just filed a support form on the Miller website. Waiting to hear back now. Hope Miller will resolve this.

If the heads crack like this under completely un-extraordinary conditions (bumped by a RED One!?), I can't even imagine them holding up to field work or rentals. Very glad we didn't hike up the side of a mountain with this (that trip isn't happening until the beginning of April).

I guess this is what happens when something comes into contact with an immovable force like RED...[/IMG]

For the past five years with Red cameras me and my crews have used multiple Miller tripod combos, including the Arrow 55, on constant super-demanding productions all over the world - and never had any problems at all with the heads or legs. Nobody on the planet has used Miller heads and legs in more demanding situations than me and my crews - mobile production in mountains, deserts, tropics, etc. Beyond that, scores of Red camera owners who do indie work (especially mobile EFP work) have taken my recommendations and bought Miller heads and legs for use with Red One and now Epic. To my knowledge absolutely none of them have ever had problems with their Miller equipment - let alone a problem like you are reporting.

The above in mind, what you are reporting is a one of a kind situation. If Miller had a history of cracking heads or legs, word travels fast in this overall industry and we'd have long since heard about it. The fact is they don't. In fact me, my crews, and the industry at large has found Miller heads and legs to be strong, durable, to perform well, and at the same time to be cost-effective.

If you've already filed a form with Miller, why do you feel the need to "sound an alarm" about this unusual situation to this forum? All that does is spread unnecessary fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD). Isn't this something you can solve quickly on your own with Miller without broadcasting your unique and unusual experience to the world?

About your problem:
Mlller heads and legs are very strong and in even the most extreme use simply don't have catastrophic failure like you've reported. Throughout my career in this industry I've extensively used tripods head and legs from every professional manufacturer - and usually when I've seen head cracking right at the point where the handle attaches to the head (like in your photos) is when a tripod has fallen over right onto the handle, thus putting a tremendous amount of strain where the handle attaches to the head. Tripod heads are made out of cast aluminum - and thus they're quite strong. I don't know what happened in your particular situation, but a good guess is that at some point the tripod fell over onto the handle area and weakened the area where it connects, or someone dropped the tripod onto the extended handle, thus weakening the attachment area. Then your AC clipping the handle with a rail of Red One may have simply opened up and greatly worsened a pre-existing crack. So, could this falling over or dropping of the head have happened before you received the head? Yes, its feasible it could have happened at the factory - if there was a handle attached at the time to create enough pressure and leverage on the handle to create a hairline crack where the handle attaches. But its also feasible that the falling over or drop happened sometime since you took delivery of the head - that an assistant of yours or someone moving about your studio in fact tipped the tripod over, striking the end of the handle and thus weakening there the handle attaches. I'm not making accusations here - just presenting concepts as to how this may have been caused.

Whether Miller buys into the slight bump on the handle scenario as the sole cause for the crack in the handle base area will remain to be seen. I think it would be better if you solved this situation directly with Miller from here on out though.

[Steve Gibby]

I have an ARROW 55 and love it.

I will say that heads in this weight range are not ideal for a RED1 with heavy lesns IMHO.
I originally used it for a RED1/RPZ 18-85 combo and while it worked, if you bumped the camera or even use it in windy conditions you are likely to have some locked off shots not turn out perfectly smooth. I imagine it will be PERFECT for EPIC.

It does look like Steve has been happy with it even with heavy loads though.

Over the past five years with Red cameras me and my crews have repeated mounted camera setups on my Miller 55 heads that ranged from 16 pounds up to 55 pounds - and the heads handled the loads beautifully. No matter what the head load - heavy, medium, or light - its been easy and quick to adjust the heads for that particular load. When adjusted properly to the load, the head action has been spot-on - extremely smooth in pans and tilts.

When using long focal length lenses in strong cross winds with any manufacturer's tripod combinations, you're at risk of shaky shots. In those conditions I get basically the same amount of frame shake from using my Miller 55 heads as when using big heavy heads like my O'Connor 2575. Strong cross wind on the long focal length lens is creating the image shake, not the tripod head.

I've attached several photos of me using my Red One and Epic cameras with heavy head loads on my Miller 55 heads. The heaviest load is in that photo of me shooting the Pipeline Masters pro surfing event on Oahu using an Optimo 12x. The camera package weighed exactly 55 pounds - the published maximum for the Miller 55 head - and the head performed flawlessly under extremely demanding circumstances, while I constantly panned and tilted following the surfing action. The head also performed perfectly with those other heavy loads pictured too.

For mobile indie EFP work with Red One I've found the Miller 55 head to be an ideal combination of weight, performance, and price. That said, with my Epic camera setups, which are naturally lighter than Red One setups, I'm using the Miller Arrow 55 and the Miller Compass 25. The Compass 25 has a maximum head load of 31 pounds - perfect for mobile EFP work with Epic using 35mm still lenses. The Compass 25 head performs very well.

[Rob Anderson]

I'm not sounding an alarm. I'm updating an experience thread and I will be overjoyed to also let everyone know when Miller takes care of the problem. If anything, I think the fact that this could be a one of a kind problem and Miller acting quickly to fix the problem and me reporting all of that here, would go even further to prove that Miller really is the kind of brand that deserves such positive recognition.

As for your assessment, I have security cameras inside of my studio and I've reviewed the footage. What you suggest never happened -- at least not in many recent days. The cracks occurred from being jarred when bumped against a RED One being lifted out of the mount. It's as simple as that. Obviously a materials and/or manufacturing defect. And clearly the kind of thing that any studio gear should be built to handle and in fact does.

Not sure why you're coming at me Steve. I'm not suggesting Miller builds poor quality products or anything like that -- I've updated an experience thread with my experience and I will gladly continue to do so when it gets resolved. I look forward to affirming that Miller is a stand up builder and is quick to address these kinds of problems; something I hope really is the case.

[Larry Gebhardt]

Just to add bit of "engineering" to the comment mix...these heads, including Miller, O’Connor, Sachtler, etc, are made mostly of cast aluminum...not cast iron (you would have a really tough time carrying them up mountainsides if they were made of cast iron).

I was an engineer in a past life before I got into film quite a few years ago...I helped design aluminum castings for the aerospace industry. Cast aluminum is fairly brittle as you can see by the pictures, the porous nature of the broken cross sections. It is also fairly strong (not near as strong from an impact standpoint as other alloys of aluminum), but in the casting process, there is always a chance of impurities getting into the mix that can really effect the strength of small areas of the part.

That is what I think happened here... just a small defect that occurred at the worst possible place...where the stresses are amplified by the pan handle.

This should be all be under warranty.

I also have to say that one of things I enjoy about this forum is the sharing of experiences, good and bad, as long as they are respectful. We all learn from others. I believe that is the case here.

Larry

[Tehben Dean]

@ Steve, The head I agree is very smooth pan/tilt even with heavy loads but what I was experiencing is some "flex" which I presume is from having the load extended way out over either side of the CG and I assume this would be less with a beefier Head and Legs...

[Steve Gibby]

Rob,
I'm sure Miller will analyze what you said happened and get the situation solved. I'm coming at you because I was the one who took the time to answer your questions here and via email, recommended the head, and you bought it. I'm thinking if you trusted my advice well enough to buy the head, and read all the positive reports here on that head, then you had that problem, you'd immediately realize that it was an unusual situation. Its always better to go directly to the maker and get something solved than to post it over Internet forums where FUD spreads like a wildfire. You're new to Red User, but I can tell you as one of the very first members of Red User that there has been a long sequence of people posting up knee jerk negative reactions to products (Red and otherwise), then readers assuming they've heard about a supposed widespread defect in the product, spread what they suppose is "accurate" info around the Internet - when most often it really isn't the case. In this case since I recommended the head, so in effect my reputation is at stake - and I take that seriously. No worries - I'm sure you'll get this solved quickly.

Larry,
Simply a typo on my part - thinking aluminum and somehow typed iron. As you'd guess I very aware that tripod heads are made of cast aluminum, not cast iron. I've correctly that mis-type in my original post. I would agree that cast aluminum is fairly strong - but obviously anything made of cast aluminum can be broken if its put to stresses beyond what it was designed for. As you said there can also be defects in cast aluminum. That doesn't necessarily mean that was the case n this situation, but naturally there is always that possibility. All other tripod manufacturers make basically all their heads out of cast aluminum so this could and probably does occasionally happen to any maker's heads.

Tehben,
Very good point - center of gravity is critical in setting up any head load on a tripod system, or for that matter on a should held rig. When setting up and mounting heavy head loads I'm way careful to get the COG exactly where it should be. Then the head action is what it should be. I experienced no "flex" that affected my shots in that max load in the Optimo 12 shot - 55 pound load. My work often involves very tightly framed fast action following of sports figures or wild animals in motion. As you'd imagine, because of that I'm real picky about head performance and the legs I use. Each of those long lens Red One and Epic setups in the pics are real-world setups I use for close action following - and the head performance was spot-on. Everybody's shooting style varies though - but I just report what works for me and my crews in the genres we work in.