Noisy Epic footage?

[Patrick Tresch]

We are not suggesting that the metadata setting during black shading affects the black shading, are we?

David

Who told you so?

Noise is linked to different issues. Mainly due to underexposed channels (and you have various ways of underexposing) or wrong callibrated sensor.

Pat

[David Battistella]

Who told you so?

Hey Pat,

I'm going on my understanding of blackshading from Deanan (when he was at RED) and when I first ran into HOT PIXELS with the original RED ONE.
At that time Blackshades were only required at the shutter angle, framerate and, TIMEBASE.

That's it.

Other that what was recently posted in this thread as quoted by Deanan, that is all I have to understand it from the source.

Most of the "problem noise" is blue channel noise. From what TED has explained to me in interviews for articels I have written, it's wise (in the M days) to "activate" the blue channel, particularly with Tungsten sources (by using blue gel or a blue filter) to help eliminate some of the blue channel noise caused by low light or tungsten sources.

In further tests I have found that this works well with the MX sensor as well in both the EPIC and the RED ONE MX.

I've never heard from any RED source that the metadata affects BLACK SHADING CALIBRATION other than the shutter, framerate and timebase.

Hope this helps.

David

[Paul J Steinberg]

"How to expose" is really a subject for another thread. Hearing of noise issues from the common user it would be great to have some feedback from the factory how features like Spiderman4 and The Hobbit dealt with it as it doesn't seem to be a problem isolated to a specific Epic.

[Mark Toia]

Shooting with the red for a couple years now, this is exactly how NOT to get the shot. What I see on the monitor MUST be check with a histogram to avoid shooting over/under exposed.
Is your claim that with an epic this is all fixed? That the view finder shows what you will see in post? That, I would like to believe.

All I need to see in my monitors is that there is no blown out skies, and there is info in my black areas... It's as simple as that.
Some of you guys are making this out to be way more than it is. Or more difficult than it needs to be.
My kids shoot my EPICs with ease, none of them come to me with badly exposed images either and they don't even know what a histogram is or let alone understand it. I just say spin the aperture ring around until the picture looks right... So far they have 100% success rates.

I've been shooting RED for 4 years now... (yes I was a very early adopter - build 14 days.. camera 158 was out first)

Back when a highlights were a huge problem... I was getting perfect exposures then, and still get perfect exposures now.
It's not rocket science Will... why do you think it has to be.

Also, What I see in post is what I want I shot on set... why would it be any different? ... All my data, goes to REDLOGFILM, all my onset meta data gets deleted, as I don't need it. I create new LUTS that suite my purpose, I don't use any onset meta data at all, ever.

Maybe you should get to know your cameras a bit better. :))) The word "EASY" is an understatement.

[Patrick Tresch]

Hello David,

No, the metadata doesn't affect the black shading.

People think they expose correctly a scene by changing metadata to 3200k, when in fact they are just pushing a channel and adding noise.

On the present case shown by Mr. Haase, I don't know if he had another issue? Is the Epic really noisier than the One-MX? I should test... But my "impression" : it's not...

Black shading can have an effect on the noise level IMundertanding if the BS calibration wasn't done properly for that current setting (Build/FPS/shutter).

[David Battistella]

That's right.

If the calibration was done for 1/2 second exposures then that setting might not be great for high speed shots.

Thats sort of it basically.

I looked at ERICs R3D and I did not think it had excessive noise compared to a RED one MX. But if I zoom past 200% I start to see some.

David

[Mark Toia]

"How to expose" is really a subject for another thread.

True.. but bad exposure is the biggest reason people get noise.

[Eric Haase]

Do you say "less exagerated" due to the black shading? As compression from 8 to 3 has only little effect over noise?
Black shanding, exposure and control over color temp could be the key?
What do you think?

I remember the early days of ONE-M, with blue screen issues due to misbelief that color temp is only a metadata thing that can be handled in post. Poeple got a lot of noise in the blue channel when lit in T.

RAW is not only Metadata! ;-)

Pat

As per my original post, I black shaded properly before the shot, exposed as I normally would and have been doing since day 1 of the MX sensor under lighting conditions I have shot a hundred times. The shot is noisier than I would expect. I understand everything about exposure, histograms, color temp, blue channel, etc etc but the shot is noisier than it should be.

[David Battistella]

Eric,

Thanks for starting this great thread. There is a lot of rich information here. If you have looked at tons of MX before and then this is your conclusion then I just have to trust your judgement. It could be the larger frame size. What if you do a 4K comparision to a 4K shot you did on R1 MX and do 4K and 4K side by side.

If you say it's noiser, I trust that based on what you are saying here. Strange, personally I find the EPIC stuff sharper with less noise, and, then again, they are different cameras, even though they share the same sensor.

David

[Eric Haase]

Eric,

Thanks for starting this great thread. There is a lot of rich information here. If you have looked at tons of MX before and then this is your conclusion then I just have to trust your judgement. It could be the larger frame size. What if you do a 4K comparision to a 4K shot you did on R1 MX and do 4K and 4K side by side.

If you say it's noiser, I trust that based on what you are saying here. Strange, personally I find the EPIC stuff sharper with less noise, and, then again, they are different cameras, even though they share the same sensor.

David

I am trying to get a hold of the side by side R1 MX shot I did. In my opinion the Epic is noisier on this shot. I am trying to find out if it is just this particular Epic, some black shading gone wrong, firmware, compression, or just a general difference. I'm hoping today to be able to shoot a test with this Epic and an MX and another Epic to compare.