Well I need an advice!
We are establishing the first grading room in Israel that will have a projector.
With all the developments and debates over 2K vs 4k, and bearing in mind our provincial budgets and the very trendy film industry around.
Which projector would you choose.
The projection room is going to be 6 meter wide and 9 meter long.
Increased resolution is inevitable, this was obvious (or I would think it was) way before HD even got off the ground. I'm not sure I understand the attitudes and mindset that resist. All the current arguments against 4K are the same tired and crap arguments we saw against HD in the 90s.
4K is still just a stepping stone, but it's a monumental one. It's one where we are matching, and in many cases surpassing, the level of detail presented by 35mm cinematic film. I'm sure we'll have the same arguments all over again when 8K delivery arrives or 12K or whatever the next major jump happens to be. Resistance to 4K is relatively light compared to what we faced with HD and I'm betting to move beyond 4K will involve a bigger fight... Just a hunch.
With all that, 4K or QHD displays are EVERYWHERE at CES. Looks like it's the theme for this year's show and none of the technical rags have figured that out yet. I'm not at CES this year, but my ninja spy network is feeding me quite a bit already, even before the exhibits open.
One thing to watch out for with the first crop of "4K" or "QuadHD" displays this year and it's a real gotcha... Not all of them accept 4K or QHD input! A good portion of them are only using all the extra pixels for passive 3D use. Many (or most) of the 4K displays do extra internal processing to up-scale and further "enhance" the image. So if you don't think your 1080p is over-processed and over-sharpened enough, then these guys have a solution for you! ;)
Seems like LG, Toshiba and Sharp are the front-runners of the 4K pack. Lots of talk over the Toshiba 55" glasses-free TV, but I'm just not finding a way to be interested in that one. I just want a 54" to 60" with good blacks and good color range that I can drive at QHD or 4K via a RED Rocket or upcoming RED RAY player.
My ninjas haven't been able to confirm yet and will have to wait for the exhibits, but it looks like a couple manufacturers will be announcing 4K projectors targeted at high end home theatre enthusiasts. Word on the street is both DLP and laser solutions. I'm expecting EPSON to be one of these with a 4K DLP since TI showed their 4K DMD system ready for production at CES last year.
I have just 3 things to add...
1. Agree with Mike, proprietary hardware playback requirement makes things tricky if RedRay is going to be more than a niche product.
Why does RED always end up competing with nVidia and AMD... instead of Sony and Arri? Seriously, I want my R3Ds to play back on my GPU and I would like RedRay to play back on my GPU if I feel like it. nVidia and AMD make cheap chips that could do this today. Why doesn't RED want to let them do their job? WTF.
If RED wants to make a truly mass-market 4K playback format... I think that it will need to work on PS4, on PCs, on Xbox, on set-top devices... everything.
By the time that most consumers have 4K monitors and data rates sufficient for 4K playback (a few years).. I think that 4K video will be playable on any modern GPU. Seems like a tough sell for RED to convince them to buy another piece of hardware... when they already have a 4K Netflix or HBO or whatever app sitting on the device they've already bought?
Maybe RED can sell their chips and get them integrated into set-top boxes? If so, awesome, but I imagine that the window of opportunity is closing fast. Because by the time that 4K hits mainstream, there will be a ton of competing chips that can do 4K playback and don't require a proprietary ecosystem.
2. Has RED talked about a better color space standard yet? 709 sucks.
If RED is going to all the trouble of building a dedicated hardware 4K playback device, plus a projector that has frikkin' lasers (laser projectors have an extremely wide color gamut)... YOU ARE CREATING BOTH ENDS OF THE PRESENTATION PLATFORM AND DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY. THIS IS IS A GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY. Why the hell don't they allow not just 709 but also a wide-gamut color space for projects mastered that way?
Either have two separate encodes... or have a 709 encode... and some compressed "wide-gamut" data per pixel that modifies the values if wide gamut is turned on.
Why not just use NHK's SHV color space - it matches laser primaries well - and then all of those 4K masters and 4K RedRays will look good on those future 8K TVs too:
Then you can sell all of the post houses your projector because they need to master wide-gamut stuff AND you can sell it as future-proof to the SHV color gamut.
I know RED hates standards... but this just seems idiotic not to do :)
3. Personally, I really would like RedRay to succeed. Even if it's just a high-income, discerning niche audience. For a filmmaker, I will not sneeze at a high-income discerning niche audience because I can probably sell them content for more money. They invested a five-figure sum in their home entertainment system. I don't think they're going to complain too much about paying a few dollars more for my movie, especially if it allows them to show off their cool setup to their friends.
But yeah... I don't think that discerning niche audience is going to like having colors limited to 709. Just me.
Very much in agreement here. But we're talking about delivery codecs now and not post pipeline. The more platforms they can implement a REDRAY player system on, the better. Given all my gripes above, I think the current state of GPUs makes them best used for delivery to end user displays. Excellent for playback of finished and deliverable content, nothing more.If RED wants to make a truly mass-market 4K playback format... I think that it will need to work on PS4, on PCs, on Xbox, on set-top devices... everything.
That's the kicker. Youtube is 4K now -- it sucks, but it's 4K. Netflix is moving that direction, so are HBO on-demand, DirecTV and others. While some do require a piece of hardware, it's not always unique hardware -- Netflix can play on almost anything these days, same with HBO. DirecTV of course needs their hardware, but that's also how many get broad TV service, and yet DirecTV subscribers can now watch their on-demand services on other devices -- iOS, etc..By the time that most consumers have 4K monitors and data rates sufficient for 4K playback (a few years).. I think that 4K video will be playable on any modern GPU. Seems like a tough sell for RED to convince them to buy another piece of hardware... when they already have a 4K Netflix or HBO or whatever app sitting on the device they've already bought?
For mass-market appeal, a REDRAY delivery system can't be locked into a purpose-specific device. That model is strained right now and will probably not work at all within the next year or two. This is why the best-selling Blu-Ray player remains the PS3. Why most disc players also handle Netflix and other services.
Yep. Most manufacturers seem to be a lot more on the ball with 4K than they were with HD. 4K content is going to be plentiful by the time most consumers get around to buying that 4K TV. I think when we'll see the massive consumer migration to 4K TV's start happening will be one year from now. The first years' models will be on discount and all those people looking to have that hot new TV set for their Super Bowl party will go shopping. RED could conceivably produce their own "4K playback chip" or whatever to incorporate into other devices and it could work well for them if they get it to market soon -- like RIGHT NOW!!! and if it were priced low enough to be economically viable. Either way, any such dedicated hardware is going to be short-lived. The RED Rocket and other such accelerator cards or any dedicated "4K chipset" is going to go the same way as all other dedicated hardware processing before this time... Straight into obsolescence oblivion; right alongside dedicated playback chips for MPEG-2 and MPEG audio and all the other little hardware assist devices that have come and gone to act as a crutch for the several months where PC's just couldn't quite do it on their own. By this time next year, we will be yet another iteration of desktop-class CPUs and desktop-class chipsets down the road, 15% on average more power per watt than the current models, which are 15% faster than the previous... A properly tuned desktop system can play bak 4K video now just fine. A performance console like the upcoming PS4 will be able to do it just fine... Selling a dedicated 4K playback device, dedicated to one brand or type of media, is not going to be a hit with consumers. Wheras a 4K playback box that plays REDRAY, 4K Netflix, 4K YouTube and 4K VUDU could just be the killer app for spendy holiday shoppers and home theatre geeks later this year.Maybe RED can sell their chips and get them integrated into set-top boxes? If so, awesome, but I imagine that the window of opportunity is closing fast. Because by the time that 4K hits mainstream, there will be a ton of competing chips that can do 4K playback and don't require a proprietary ecosystem.
This NEEDS to happen. 709 does suck. There are other "standardized" color spaces out there, but it doesn't seem like anyone can agree on which one should be THE ONE. Once again because most are purpose-specific or championed by one industry segment or manufacturer. I had not thought about NHK's spec, you make a compelling argument there.2. Has RED talked about a better color space standard yet? 709 sucks.
Stills guys used AdobeRGB for all their raw needs for years because there were few if any means of outputting anything wider. Now, since I have a printer that can actually print colors
that fall outside the Adobe RGB space, I most often use the much larger "ProPhoto" space. But, with stills, it is easy to switch from image to image as is required: if colors fit comfortably
in Adobe RGB, then there is little point in spreading them across the wider Pro Photo.
How does this work in film when, say, the majority of a movie's imagery is easily contained within the likes of 709?
What happens when these clips are (unnecessarily) stretched over the larger color space? How does one space fit all???
And on the subject of small portable screens: This shift doesn't go against 4k. People will watch shows where they want and can. If they are bored out of their mind waiting at the DMV and can't find anything else that peaks their interest, nothing else that seems worth their time and hard-earned money, then they might go ahead and watch "that great movie I've been dying to see" on their phone, knowing full well it won't be as great of an experience as it would be at home on their big 4k setup --certainly nowhere close to how great of an experience it would be in at the 4k movie theater.
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