Click here to go to the first RED TEAM post in this thread.   Thread: 2012: The Year of 4K

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  1. #71  
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    It is all crazy Pactrick. Imagine what happens in natural disasters, a major solar storm even, or war, lots of way to be cut off or closed down, not just legal intervention. If there is a legal dispute between companies on copyright ownership, even on contract to use copyrighted material, even just a single frame of a accidentally filmed copyrighted work in a movie, given a sympathetic judge, in future it may even be used to shut down a site with 100 million + users, with the way the law is going, talk about service interruptions. There will be new insidious ways to wage corporate battles. The studios have to realise all this stuff they are supporting can be used very wrongly even against them, and once court battles go into the hundreds of millions+ things will get even more obvious. Like the electronics industry IP battles (and remember, future owners of studios from other industrues, are free to bring this mentality with them) where we get some litigious players that think they should own everything, even slight styling, one side gets a bit, or massively, greedy, another gets offended, then it's on for the next x months or years, but unlike electronics and patenting, to do swift damage and cost a lot you will not need little money to do it. Imagine if dense people passed a copyright law where you could potentially close down a whole movie release or cloud movie site because an arty restraunt owner designed a unobtrusive, but unique, rubbish bin to put out side his restraunt on the pavement, or a window display, and decided to have a go. I could design a rubbish bin and get Asian manufacturers to use it for cheap rates so evtually it comes up in film. I think this whole thing about the Hollywood sign is also rediculouse, if it is a public display / landmark, common object, you should be able to have it in shoot. These are why you are carefully designing laws not to be too expansive, and why business should be too, people are crazy enough to do things like this, if you let them of course.

    Another craziness, is thus talk of getting rid of tapes and disks, to use hard drives to archive your movie footage. The surfaces of dusks are prone to deterioration of the recorded data, or they were years ago. If you drop one, you might crash the head and loss data. When the custom electronics in the drive age and faulter (notice I said when not if) you then have a potentially very difficult and costly task of trying to figure out how to recover that data. Flash is another prone to deterioration. If you drop a fireproof, magnetic field resistant tape cartridge, what do you have, maybe a/broken cartridge in a archival tape format that can be recovered easily that will last many years. Dusjs are a bit more prone to damage, but have similar advantages. I did some theorising for designing new tape and archival systems in the past. You can record onto a medium with longer archival life and have a mechanism for data recovery, I came up with a mechanism that would work into millions of years. Tape is far from fully developed as well, forget even your mukti terabyte holographic disks, the mechanisms I came up with can far far exceed it's storage density for cartrudge footprint, many times over. As for longevity, that really depends on medium used, which affects recording density, so there is some trade off, and I am not saying I can achieve that density and thousand year plus archival times at the same time, but I should be able to make it durable format in handling. As ussual, no magic, just brains.

    I just realised Stuart said redray will also be on physical format, great, great, great. I had a business scheme ages ago, you buy the cloud service and can get a disk with that. For copyright reasons the disk maybe sent out to you after the first 6 months of release with all other purchases for the month, which gives time to maximise revenue before a pirate can lay hold of a library disk (not that they can merely copy the lower quality stream from the cloud anyway). I know I am giving away strategy here, but also establishing a moral prior art date (the patent law sucks). Many businesses have stratergies, schemes and models that suck, fashionably not seeing the dimensions of the problems or of human aspects, or of the future, or how to handel them or design products, they really need to talk to people like me first that see these things.
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  2. #72  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe View Post
    HD didn't make SD look worse, it just showed it the way it is.
    When cathode ray tubes died, so did good looking tv IMO

    I haven't seen any HD flat monitor display SD nicely, and most the hd content I've seen here in the UK, frankly, is compressed to f&*k. I'd rather run HD content through my downsampler and into a SD CRT frankly

    As for projectors..Some imax employees display a b&w checker board image onto an imax screen. they subdivide the squares over time and wait until individual pixels have shrunk until they are no longer visible, and the image has turned grey.. and the result?.. we have approx 720p worth of distinguishable pixels on an imax screen..and the legend has it they stopped working for imax. I'll believe the projector hype when I see it..measured with charts!

    The point is, projectors can't display resolution as high as a modern monitor because they lack the contrast ratio, and a flat HD monitor is designed to maximize resolution/definition/c/ratio.. which is why their line skippy SD up-samples look so crap and edgy. The pixels are too "discrete", the CRT blurred them together in a really organic way. I wouldn't mind if they had decent built in gaussian blur filters.. but most don't, just crappy digital tweaks.. and bizarre frame blending interpolation nonsense so idiot filmmakers like that one that filmed hitler outside his bunker in 1945 etc can have their crappy low fps footage corrected by some tv 50years later using a subjective algorithm just so we can make hitler look smoother for a few seconds.. or some David Icke fan sees a news reader/lizard person morphing on live tv.. we need to take control back before TVs start rewriting history (without the need of hollywood screen writers).. that reminds me, I need to go on ebay and look for a proper monitor of the none flat variety free of lizard people
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  3. #73  
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    As Jeff said. Now you simply have bigger better TVs to notice things, and if you had 42 inch+ accurate crts back then you would have noticed too at similar distances.

    Negatives don't negate positives, and a descent FHD TV will show just how crappy SD really allways was, and how wonderful FHD is. Believe me, I've even read the competition giving a much higher real resolution to I Max that was lower than their claimed resolution, than that anti-hype. It probably was a myth or mistake (bad optic setup even) rather than largest frame I Max. The organic, crt blooming is a sloppy technological flaw emulatable on fhd or shd. Maybe the brightness and satuation of the laser projector will be able to give people real blooming again, on their retinas.
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  4. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart English View Post
    What's clear is the majority of audio visual content already is, or will in future be, delivered "over the network" to IP connected players.

    That does not mean that Broadcast TV, DVD's or Blu-rays or other methods will vanish any time soon. And the "archive" and "slow network"arguments for physical media have merit, which is why RED RAY can support both network and physical delivery....

    ... however arguments such as "TV won't change", or "people own DVDs or Blue-ray are happy with that", so a new 4K resolution delivery system cannot / will not be adopted by an economically significant community of vendors and customers; that's just FUD.

    How big that community will be in X months / years is the only question IMHO.
    It's easy to say that the internet is convenient and doesn't have the constraints of physical formats but this ignores the biggest problem that this delivery faces, ISPs.
    The internet companies are already annoyed about the amount of bandwidth which netflix causes, imagine what it will be like when everything online is a minimum of 4k, I don't think they will let it happen lightly and you will end up with services which cost a fortune in bandwidth costs and depending on the time of day take either 3 mins to download or 3 hours.
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  5. #75  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig W. Bickerstaff View Post
    The internet companies are already annoyed about the amount of bandwidth which netflix causes, imagine what it will be like when everything online is a minimum of 4k, I don't think they will let it happen lightly and you will end up with services which cost a fortune in bandwidth costs and depending on the time of day take either 3 mins to download or 3 hours.
    Most current Blu-ray discs -- which is fairly-compressed 1080, 1/4th the resolution of 4K -- are around 50GB. Try to send 50GB on a "high-speed" internet connection, and let me know how long it takes.

    Eventually, we will have this kind of bandwidth. But even at the 25Mbps data rate we have in my neighborhood, it takes an hour or two just to download 1GB. A 50GB Blu-ray disc would take well over a day. I couldn't put a number on how long before this capability will happen, but even if bandwidth goes up 10 times in five years, it'll still take hours to get just Blu-ray quality from point A to point B. Assuming dedicated fiber connections and tons of money, no problem -- but that's a big assumption. If 4K content takes up 4 times more space... that's a lotta data.
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    This is all true, but eventually the cost can become less than a cent. The waveform of an electron should be able to store an unlimited amount of data, or so it was announced years ago. As a technologist science friction writer and designer, this is the level of theoretical I consider. Optical communications should also be able to compress much more data down their pipes. Eventually with increase of method the cost can be reduced. Even though such things sound trendy, in reality, there are practical limitations to getting and keeping the waveform on that electron, though I have sound ideas, the reality, is that no where near unlimited might ever be achieved as for our capability, and eventually so much energy would be required before that point, that said electron could be able to theoretically do a lot of damage to the Earth if it came into contact. Likewise with optical communications there are limitations, you need a channel that is transperent over ever increasing frequency mix (basically maybe an impossibility for normal materials) and ever decreasing losses in energy (either factor will burn through a cable with increasing power eventually, left un-addressed). As I am not a material scientist, I can not give an estimation of likely ultimate capacity of optical cable, but with the reduced bandwidth of Redray, and my own codec ideas, there may well be enough capacity for our needs well past 4k 3d. For the moment, just the primitive redray performance should suite eventual drops in cost, to deliver 4k cheap. A big factor might be optical routing which can skip conversion to electrical signals back and forwards, between the storage device and the users home. Not only are they reportedly immensely on immensely faster than conventional semiconductors for routing they make the process cheaper. 5 years is the time frame to see optical in computers, along with other network advancements. So in 5-10 years the picture could be much clearer. However, I envisage some pretty nifty science and techniques to eliminated some of these obstacles in channels and routing, if only I can get funding and verify a few things.
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    If 4K content takes up 4 times more space... that's a lotta data.
    Yeah but it doesn't. Your 50GB Blu-ray disk payload you referenced is more like 16GB on RED RAY.

    And if you really have a 25Mb/s download on your internet, that's real time for RED RAY ...

    ... which in turn tells me your internet provider may be telling porkies :-)
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  8. #78  
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    Well that tends to be where the market goes. The rise in tech starts slow, the last 100 years was the base-work. This exponential curve will continue to rise rapidly, 1080p is good enough for me. 4k will be that much better when I can afford it.

    At the end of the day, I'll still watch old DVDs of my favorite flims. 720x480 aside, content matters. There are so many good old black and white films out there I have never seen or know about. Don't lose site of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark L. Pederson View Post
    2012 is shaping up to be the year of 4K.

    4K Projectors for the home from more than one manufacturer - 4K TVs from 6 manufacturers that I am aware of. (5 confirmed - 6th is an exciting wild card rumor)

    http://smarthouse.com.au/TVs_And_Lar...ED_TV/T8A4B6T8

    You can talk all you want about the slow and poor transition to HD - and you can sit there shooting 1080p content and claim that it will be many, many years before we are watching TV shows in 4K - but .... you'd be DEAD WRONG.

    Things are VERY different now. TV is the internet. HBO GO has better compression in HD than some carriers. APPLE's VOD numbers for indie films are insane (in a good way). There's COMPETITION to deliver content - Google, Amazon, Apple, Hulu (with more than twice as much as the combined total of video streamed from the websites of ABC, CBS, the CW, Fox and NBC) - so .... delivery platforms will need to differentiate themselves with QUALITY. I'm aware of one early start-up company already working to be the first all 4K broadcast channel.

    2012 the 4K dominos will fall.

    1080 is the next Black and White. (and yes - you can still make a good movie in black and white ala "The Artist" - but harder when it comes to financing and selling the content)
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  9. #79  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart English View Post
    Yeah but it doesn't. Your 50GB Blu-ray disk payload you referenced is more like 16GB on RED RAY. And if you really have a 25Mb/s download on your internet, that's real time for RED RAY ... ... which in turn tells me your internet provider may be telling porkies :-)
    Speaking of which, have you guys publicly stated what the data capacity of Red Ray is? Just a GB capacity, plus a Mbps throughput? I'm honestly curious where you're at there.

    I don't doubt that Red Ray can work -- I'm skeptical only as a delivery medium for home use, or as a format to sell in stores. For pro dailies and screenings, sure. JPEG2000 can fit on a lot of formats, and the size of the DCPs out there is not ridiculous; I've seen them well under the 50GB capacity of a dual-layer Blu-ray.
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    It will be a real hoot if it is 5d+ wavelet.

    Stuart, from prior talk Red ray was less than 10 mb/s and is now below 20mb/s or something, my guess in no small part because noise is niosy to sound good. But it is not really 16GB compared to 50GB, as BD is 1080 instead of 4k.

    However, it is possible to break linerarity of compression ratio between two resolutions for similar quality with variouse techniques I have been looking into (yes, it is deliberately obscure as usual) which means shd 4k does not need to be anywhere near 4 times the data rate of 1080 to maintain similar quality. I find even intelliegent people have problems grasping (believing) such concepts as they are usually primitively tied into refining past mechanisms rather than the pure true intelligence of accessing and creating and shaping new effective mechanisms. I have been eagerly waiting for Redray, it is nice to see my old research validated in new products (except when they have been personally illegally copied from my notes, as has happened to me, resulting in some top technologies). If it turns out to be something different than that would be nice too. The more I think about the more new branches of technology open up to me, I could probably define the whoe of space and time in a single wave. The guy from "A Brilliant Mind" failed in defining an algorithm to represent the movements of pigeons because he just was not good enough, if he was he would have quickly realised that mechanisms drive the pigeons behavours, and he could at least have defined a set of equations to roughly aporoximate the mechanisms leading to the movements (including environmental and social interaction of the pigeons) after examiing the mechanisns, enough for AI movement use in modern games. For the inspiration into the economic mechanism that ultimately he became famous for in the history of economics, from memory faiks me, but he won a nobel prize for it didn't he, that is the sort of thing I can come up with taking a single bite of a pea at lunch or tea (ussually too sick at breakfast), somewhat remarkable. People spend so much time not listening to those that know and can see, we are doomed to mediocre progress and we get what they deserve. :)
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