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  1. #1 Red and Adobe 
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    Id be interested to hear Adobe Premiere users views on Switching from FCP7 to Premiere and Red functionality. How good is Premiere as an editor both for creative editing and also picture finishing.
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  2. #2  
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    Meh.

    That's the one word version.

    I am not a fan of Premiere .. but its fast, supports RED well, and has a great feature set.

    You can do any sort of creative editing you want in the system, and you can finish a picture with it too ... to roughly the same standard as you'd use in FCP.

    The quality of the rendered results is a step up from FCP, but not quite as nice as you'd get with Color or Resolve.

    My quibbles with Premiere are not about what it can do.

    My issues are with how it does things. Forget keystrokes and other things you jsut have to figure out with any new NLE.

    I am concerned with things like including the broadcast video output as a sequence setting instead of a system setting. With FCP, I set up my FCP system for broadcast output, and then any sequences just use that set up, without regard to what the native sequence is. Premiere requires you to set up your sequence to use the broadcast out.

    So if you transfer a sequence from one Premiere editor (using AJA i/o for example) to another (using Black Magic i/o) then the new editor has to set up a new sequence with the proper output settings.

    If you are bouncing an edit back and forth ... well it can get silly. This is a technical flaw in their system design. Think it through and you'll find other issues quickly. It makes Premiere a pain in the ass for any setting with multiple editors, where the editors are not working on identical systems.

    Also the effect controls Adobe prefers are abysmal. People seem to get used to them and just work - but they are abysmal. If you really hate yourself, try grading inside Premiere. AE is a touch better ... but still you'd have to be full of self loathing.

    Thank goodness for XML and tools like Resolve for grading.

    It amazes me that Photoshop and Illustrator can be such elegant creative applications yet Premiere and AE are just such crappy systems to use.

    So ... to sum up:

    Premiere technology and features : A-
    Premiere system design: D
    Premiere User Interface: D-

    As to my future plans ... I plan on switching to FCP X as soon as that system supports flawless interchange and broadcast i/o.

    I'll keep using Production Premium of course ... Photoshop and Illustrator kick ass, and those products alone make a great value in Production Premium. I also like to have AE and Premiere on hand for when I get projects brought to me using those tools.
    Alexander Ibrahim
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  3. #3  
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    Thanks for that, sort of what my take is too. We use resolve for Grading which is really nice to use. Great results.

    My biggest misgivings with Premiere is its not intuitive, same as AE but then Im not a compositor so what do I know. Im more interested in workflow. I do like Adobe products but your completely right about Photoshop and Illustrator GUI, may be who ever designed the interface for those apps needs to take a look at the motion picture apps too.
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  4. #4  
    Senior Member Doug Beatty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Ibrahim View Post
    Meh.

    It amazes me that Photoshop and Illustrator can be such elegant creative applications yet Premiere and AE are just such crappy systems to use.
    Just so I'm clear, the biggest negatives are:

    1) Renders straight out of Premiere don't look as good than renders that have been graded in Color or Resolve.
    2) Broadcast video out, when changing from AJA to Black Magic requires an editor to create a new sequence with the proper settings selected.
    3) Adobe effect controls (i.e. sliders and curves) are "abysmal"

    I have to say that you are the first person I have read about that has these quibbles. Valid for you, but I haven't had any similar issues and I have been using Adobe for the last 5 years.

    I have to push back when you say After Effects is a crappy system. I find it to be the most powerful application in the creative suite in the hands of someone that is familiar with its interface. It's not an NLE or a color grading app- it's primary use is for compositing. It just so happens to be extremely robust with what you can accomplish inside of it (pixel motion blur, advanced keying, time remapping, etc.)

    To each their own, though. If it works for you, use it. If it doesn't find another solution that will.

    Forgot to mention that you can change the keyboard shortcuts in Premiere to match Final Cut if you want. That would cut down on the learning curve for some.
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  5. #5  
    Senior Member Matt Gottshalk's Avatar
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    Switched from FCPro to Premiere and haven't looked back.

    Was even able to keep my Matrox MXO 2 hardware with it.

    Native editing is where it's at, and if you shoot on RED, then it is a no brainer.

    RE: Adobe AE, I concur about it's flexibility and power.
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  6. #6  
    Have to agree with Alexander's assessment... Technically great but usability is poo.
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  7. #7  
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    IMHO, As far as traditional editorial, Premiere Pro is pretty much awesome. And I've found the the workflow between multiple editors to be both VERY easy, and highly portable. Project files are small and very self contained, and PPro works directly (and beautifully) with a multitude of original file formats right from the source media. PPro also cuts RED RAW 4K (or sony media, or mxf files or whatever) like a razor, on both high end AND low end stations, with (almost) complete access to all metadata, allowing for nondestructive, realtime onelight color grading right from the R3D files...NO TRANSCODING REQUIRED... AND NO SPECIAL HARDWARE REQUIRED. (But it gets even better with a Red Rocket!)

    I would agree that Color Correction within PPro could benefit from some revamping, but you can still do an awful lot with its existing CC tools. BUT... PPro projects open directly within AE, allowing you access to a wide, badass world of color/graphics tools, assuming you know how to use 'em.

    That being said if you're goal is to perform seriously hardcore grading with power windows, etc... from within PPro, it might behoove you to look into CC plug in tools to help you out.
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  8. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Beatty View Post
    1) Renders straight out of Premiere don't look as good than renders that have been graded in Color or Resolve.
    This is expected, and I don't consider it to be a real problem. Sorry if I created that impression.

    I just do my CC in Color or Resolve and move on. Starting with CS4 or CS5 Adobe software became a lot smarter about not rendering what they didn't need to, at the same time they started delivering far better results.

    Let's be serious though ... this isn't Smoke.

    2) Broadcast video out, when changing from AJA to Black Magic requires an editor to create a new sequence with the proper settings selected.
    If you haven't encountered this, I'm guessing you probably work alone or in studio with people with identical hardware, and only on projects you control. Or maybe you just aren't using broadcast monitoring.

    If you have a client with say, Matrox MXO i/o hardware, and they send you a Premiere project that you need to work on with your AJA system ... this is going to be fun.

    First you have to create a new sequence to work with your AJA, and copy/paste the client's sequence into yours.

    Now, when you send the project file back to the client ... they have to take your sequence and do the same thing for their Matrox MXO settings.

    Go back and forth a few times and you can end up with a dozen sequences with similar content.

    Each copy/paste operation and sequence set up is a chance to introduce errors into the project.

    Now, multiply that over 4 editors over a feature post.

    Now add a Resolve Colorist, with Black Magic i/o who gets your Premiere project and has to work with that ...

    Now add a sound editor and ...

    It becomes a complete clusterfuck.

    I'd rather use FCP 6.

    I don't know how FCP X will work out for that sort of environment. so I'm looking at Avid MC6 as a possible next step.

    Its a pity ... I really like Premiere's project file package ... everything is tidy ... it could be so easy to swap project files and get so much done, but this one bug breaks all that in any serious workflow.

    3) Adobe effect controls (i.e. sliders and curves) are "abysmal"

    I have to push back when you say After Effects is a crappy system.
    I didn't say that at all. I said AE was a crappy system to use.

    Like all the Adobe video applications it has a great feature set, especially for the price, and can deliver results.

    If that is all that matters, then Premiere and AE will work for you.

    I think how I work with the system matters - and I find the antiquated Shake interface more compositor friendly than the AE interface.

    Shake doesn't have the features in AE ... because at this point Shake has gone 6 years without an update.

    As far as working in a timeline compositor (AE's interface is timeline compositing, Shake & Nuke are node compositors) I think Motion is far more pleasant to use. Too bad its feature set doesn't stand up to what AE can offer.

    Now ... what does that mean? "pleasant to use" "bad UI" blah blah.

    I'll take a simple example the sliders.

    Adobe's various effect sliders in Premiere and AE are "fiddly" or "twitchy."

    Comparing them to Photoshops sliders, it takes longer to set a specific value, and sometimes a small input can give a large change.

    Stepping past that, its a bit slower to skip the GUI element and get to numeric entry. In Photoshop I can usually just start typing, in Premiere I have to click on the value.

    This is in part because Premiere and AE insist on keeping tons and tons of settings in a single window with twirl downs, while Photoshop pops up a task specific window.

    Let's look at how the color correction is implemented in FCP versus Premiere.

    Both offer a 3 way color corrector. FCP however lets you make that effect into a separate tab in the canvas ... you get fast intuitive access to secondaries via the GUI. Its a good editorial color corrector ... without attempting to do more than the interface can handle.

    Now, Premiere. I think you can affect just about every parameter you can control in Color ... provided you are willing to spend 20 times as long doing so! Most of these are in twirl downs, with those fiddly sliders and click to type effects. Its a disaster.

    Also FCP supports control surfaces, gods ... how did I get this far without mentioning that Premiere doesn't support control surfaces. A minor disaster in my mind.

    I mean, sure I can use a Contour Shuttle Pro - which I have on my desk now, but not an Artist Control or Artist Transport or any other professional control surface.

    What this all ends up adding up to is time. Time spent not editing, but fighting the system under the NLE and fighting the NLE's controls.

    This won't be fixed with a set of new shortcuts for FCP editors. Adobe is going to have to spend real time making these controls work intelligently, and building in support for things like EUCON.

    I'm very excited about Adobe's acquisition of Iridas Speedgrade ... could spell great things for the color correction side of their products, which is a real weak point now.

    (TO ADOBE: Real support please with configurable softkeys and such - if you are going to do it do it right.)
    Alexander Ibrahim
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  9. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by CK Olsen View Post
    That being said if you're goal is to perform seriously hardcore grading with power windows, etc... from within PPro, it might behoove you to look into CC plug in tools to help you out.
    I'd say that a toolset like Colorista is an absolute must ... but even with such tools grading in Premiere Pro is a disaster.

    Resolve or Color today.

    Adobe SpeedGrade in the future ... assuming they don't invent a way to screw up the integration.
    Alexander Ibrahim
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  10. #10  
    Senior Member mikeburton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Ibrahim View Post
    Meh.

    That's the one word version.

    I am not a fan of Premiere .. but its fast, supports RED well, and has a great feature set.

    You can do any sort of creative editing you want in the system, and you can finish a picture with it too ... to roughly the same standard as you'd use in FCP.

    The quality of the rendered results is a step up from FCP, but not quite as nice as you'd get with Color or Resolve.
    Alexander, just so we are all clear this statement about Premiere not rendering as "good of quality" as Color or Resolve I assume your referring to the Color Grading Tools themselves and what you can achieve with those and not the actual quality of the picture you are capable of "RENDERING" in Premiere? Remember, Premiere is a 32bit and will render say DPX, Tiff or Quicktime without loss in quality unless of course you are going from DPX or Tiff to a lesser codec such as a Qucktime ProRes HQ for example, which is of course taking a 10bit 444 file or 16bit 444 file and brining it into a 10bit 422 world. But if you are going from DPX to DPX for instance there would be NO quality loss whatsoever. I've used Premiere many times for doing final layback and mastering from Resolve, Scratch, Color, SpeedGrade, and Lustre systems ingesting final output DPX files adding titles etc and mastering back out to DPX with NO quality loss whatsoever. I think you should rephrase what you referring to here because its quite misleading and not very detailed or accurate. If you are referring to the color tools as apposed to the actual "render quality" which i truly hope you are, well, that seems to be why Adobe purchased Speedgrade.
    As for the difference between the two editors ie FCP and Premiere its a users choice. I was extremely comfortable in FCP and Media Composer and still am but started using Premiere with the CS5 launch and have come to love the speed of the system. I agree there are still some tools and options that Premiere could improve upon but if you're an editor you should really be comfortable with all the tools and choose the right one for the particular job at hand.
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