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  1. #291  
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    Jims, please be careful with accidentally build The Skynet with all this brains!!!!!!
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  2. #292  
    Senior Member Nuka Wlk's Avatar
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    Hmmm...I'm curious. Even though there is the possibility that Cameron will now shoot AVATAR 2 on (his fifty) EPIC's, that doesn't automatically mean that we'll see a full 4K version in the theaters. Here's why: Cameron himself have said that it's not cost effective to go over the 2K mark on CGI, since it would take too long to render - hence cost too much. So that could possibly mean that even though he might shoot on the EPIC for the live action sequences in 5K - he might choose to have a 2K MASTER with less resolution so that it would "fit" in with the CGI sequences - that is, if he does actually practice what he preach. There's also the issue with 48fps - which would mean double rendertime on CGI = double the cost (right?). So that would also kill the budget if they wanted to go full 4K on the 48fps CGI renders. Then again, it IS Cameron I'm talking about here, so he might just insist on givin' AVATAR 2 the full on 4K treatment anyway - with the argument that he's just "future-proofing" his film, hehe - at least I really, really hope so ;D

    All this btw would also apply to Peter Jackson's THE HOBBIT - which also is a CGI heavy show.
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  3. #293  
    Yes and no to increased render time. It would certainly be higher than 2k but not necessary 4x as high just for the resolution increase.

    All renderings are already supersampled. So they're actually rendering at ~8k+ samples most of the time but then downsampling to 2k for the actual rendered image. Also most renderings employ adaptive sampling so a plain white wall will be 2k of detail but a grassy field will be rendering at 8k equivalent sampling. If they render at 4k they might find that they don't actually need any more samples and just accept a slightly more aliased 4k image over a smoother 2k. I often render off 4k passes for 1080p deliverables.

    The real cost of increased 4k vs 2k would come in the composite and on the file server where you would have to move significantly more data. However pushed in part by Avatar and the nature of its incredibly dense forest sequences the industry has started moving towards deep-pixel compositing which stores every sample anyway--in which case a 4k image at 2x2 sampling and a 2k image at 4x4 sampling would be exactly the same file size and render cost in the composite. OpenEXR 2.0 will be the start of that going mainstream and it'll probably be ready for Avatar 2.
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  4.   This is the last RED TEAM post in this thread.   #294  
    Red Team Deanan's Avatar
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    A couple of upcoming and current projects are planning 4k+3k/2k (where appropriate) hybrid pipelines. 4k for general footage and background plates and 3k/2k depending on the shot. Often times the fast paced shots are fine at a lower res.
    Last edited by Deanan; 05-07-2011 at 05:25 PM.
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  5. #295  
    Senior Member AnthonyFlores's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavin Greenwalt View Post
    Yes and no to increased render time. It would certainly be higher than 2k but not necessary 4x as high just for the resolution increase.

    All renderings are already supersampled. So they're actually rendering at ~8k+ samples most of the time but then downsampling to 2k for the actual rendered image. Also most renderings employ adaptive sampling so a plain white wall will be 2k of detail but a grassy field will be rendering at 8k equivalent sampling. If they render at 4k they might find that they don't actually need any more samples and just accept a slightly more aliased 4k image over a smoother 2k. I often render off 4k passes for 1080p deliverables.

    The real cost of increased 4k vs 2k would come in the composite and on the file server where you would have to move significantly more data. However pushed in part by Avatar and the nature of its incredibly dense forest sequences the industry has started moving towards deep-pixel compositing which stores every sample anyway--in which case a 4k image at 2x2 sampling and a 2k image at 4x4 sampling would be exactly the same file size and render cost in the composite. OpenEXR 2.0 will be the start of that going mainstream and it'll probably be ready for Avatar 2.
    Given what you've said Gavin, I would guess the actual extra cost for 4k in relative % to the overall budgetary costs of a $200-300 million film aren't that significant. Or at least not enough of deterrent to at least product a 4k version for theaters that can show it -- or distribution once 4k becomes more prevalent. I think we have to remember that by 2013 we could have a lot more 4k compatible TV's in the home as well.
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  6. #296  
    Senior Member Lorenzo Straight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnthonyFlores View Post
    Given what you've said Gavin, I would guess the actual extra cost for 4k in relative % to the overall budgetary costs of a $200-300 million film aren't that significant. Or at least not enough of deterrent to at least product a 4k version for theaters that can show it -- or distribution once 4k becomes more prevalent. I think we have to remember that by 2013 we could have a lot more 4k compatible TV's in the home as well.
    So basically, the rest of the world of filmmaking need to catch up, because Red has gone and made these totally unnecessarily large sensors! Now Jim, darn it. With great power comes great responsibility. Maybe Red should help software companies make their renderer's 4K ready. How could Red expect everyone to step up their game? The nerve!
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  7. #297  
    Senior Member Nuka Wlk's Avatar
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    Thanks for the great and insightful replies, guys! Now, I'm not nearly as worried as I was before ;D

    I'm really excited to hear about the 4k+3k/2k (where appropriate) hybrid pipeline, which of course makes a lot of sense. If you SHOULD compromise - then only at the "sweet spots" where no one's gonna notice anyway.

    I don't care what anyone thinks of AVATAR, I love that film and now I can't help but to anticipate to see Pandora in 4K - at least in some shots in the sequel :) And I also hope that they'll go with the same pipeline on THE HOBBIT!!

    @Lorenzo - Hahahaha!! :D Yea, now RED really needs to create 4K super fast rendering hardware for post houses. GO RED!!! ;D
    Last edited by Nuka Wlk; 05-08-2011 at 01:04 AM. Reason: typo
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  8. #298  
    Senior Member Tom Greenberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorenzo Straight View Post
    So basically, the rest of the world of filmmaking need to catch up, because Red has gone and made these totally unnecessarily large sensors! Now Jim, darn it. With great power comes great responsibility. Maybe Red should help software companies make their renderer's 4K ready. How could Red expect everyone to step up their game? The nerve!
    This is a constant issue in our industry, especially affecting post-production and distribution workflows. One part of the process has a technological breakthrough, and leapfrogs everything else, and then the rest of the pieces have to play catch-up. As soon as resolution increases, the following happens: render times go up, files get bigger, bandwidth is too limited, file transfers take longer, media storage isn't adequate, video processing can't keep up, monitors can't handle display needs, and so on. We went through this process when SD video moved to 720p HD, went through it again with the move to 1080p, and are beginning to go through it again as the industry embraces 4K. As Jim says, all things are subject to change. In this industry, change is inevitable, so you better learn to love it!
    Last edited by Tom Greenberg; 05-08-2011 at 09:55 AM.
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  9. #299  
    Senior Member Lorenzo Straight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Greenberg View Post
    This is a constant issue in our industry, especially affecting post-production and distribution workflows. One part of the process has a technological breakthrough, and leapfrogs everything else, and then the rest of the pieces have to play catch-up. As soon as resolution increases, the following happens: render times go up, files get bigger, bandwidth is too limited, file transfers take longer, media storage isn't adequate, video processing can't keep up, monitors can't handle display needs, and so on. We went through this process when SD video moved to 720p HD, went through it again with the move to 1080p, and are beginning to go through it again as the industry embraces 4K. As Jim says, all things are subject to change. In this industry, change is inevitable, so you better learn to love it!
    Yeah, the thinking caps need to be put on.
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  10. #300  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorenzo Straight View Post
    So basically, the rest of the world of filmmaking need to catch up, because Red has gone and made these totally unnecessarily large sensors! Now Jim, darn it. With great power comes great responsibility. Maybe Red should help software companies make their renderer's 4K ready. How could Red expect everyone to step up their game? The nerve!
    Give it 2-3 years.

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