Alexa vs. EPIC...

[Dan Carr]

Is Epic really 1/3 size ? I saw Alexa at NAB and was surprised how small it was , and surprised how big the I/O module for Epic was. Given the Alexa has the I/O stuff built onto in the first place a fair comparison of size cannot be just the Epic Brain vs Alexa?



In this configuration, as many will use it I'd say they are fairly similar in size. Though granted , the Epics ability to become smaller as necessary is for me it's main attraction for sure. Just saying.... :)

[KETCH ROSSi]

What the issue here is IMO is that RED does not do any negative advertisement, but plenty of people in the industry do advertise RED negatively,
I have seen this many times over and continue to see it, during our Epic American Tour I introduced Epic for the first time to some serious Film
shooters that have also been introduced to Alexa and told all the horrors about RED, yet were impressed beyond believe about Epic's workflow, which guess what? It is the same for Red One.

Especially in Europe Arri owns the market with Alexa do to the extreme amount of negative advertisement of RED by not only some known Big name manufacturers,
but form most rental houses them selves, one thing I can assure here and now is that as soon as we open KETCH ROSSi STUDiOS Italy, this will greatly change, HOW??

Just wait and see what I have up my sleeves to make sure things get back in to perspective, especially in and around my ow Country were people are greatly been misled!!

Also the fact that HUNDREDS of students will come thru our program using nothing but RED cameras, will also make its mark, I am sure of it and can't wait till it begins... ;)

[Russell Fogle]

Commenting on your line Jim...

"Arri is a 70 year old company. RED is a 5 year old company. RED is scary. Arri apparently is not."

I feel compelled to comment, Being at NAB last Wednesday & going to the RED booth I was disappointed that the RED booth felt like some type of check out our generation-X club / group and not a serious high end camera company.

Tattoo booth?... I understand wanting the Oakley feel & approach but I really think that this sometimes cheapens the RED brand. We're not selling sun glasses here to people hoping to be cool. This "RED Rebellion" attitude stuff unfortunately scares away a lot of good & well respected DPs, ACs, Producers, Directors, Key Grips, etc. that have been working with & feeling great confidence in Arri products for many years. All that it takes is in one conversation for someone to knock a camera system one way or the other for the job to swing that way. It shouldn't be the case, but certainly often is.

RED Staffers standing around seeming like they were a little too cool for everyone else, Tattoo guys sitting around in the Tattoo area doing nothing but texting on their phones. In the showroom area, there was a huge pile / mess of random cage / accessory parts in the corner on a cart & counter. (frick'n mess, this was on Wednesday by the way) I walked up to at least three Reps standing behind display cases talking to people asking questions & almost every time they were saying something to the effect of "yeah we don't know when that will be ready / out" This does not instill confidence to the many non-believers. I am not judging, only offering my true personal observations / feelings in comparison to visiting other vendors at NAB.

Let me clarify my position & reasoning for my message here. I'm a huge believer in the RED program. I'm a RED owner / Operator for 3 years. I have the ONE, all 7 RPPs, RED Rocket, and high end tools like my Scropio Telescopic crane (It's basically a Technocrane on Steroids, there's only 4 of them in the U.S.) What I've found to be a key in my survival growth & success is the selling of confidence to my clients. There are many people with RED packages that will go out cheaper than I but what wins clients over to me is the confidence that I instill in them as a company. Many of my clients would like to save money indeed, but in the end they choose to feel that they have insurance policy that this project isn't going to blow up in their face along the way. I think that the Arri brand instills this same confidence in many people, especially ones that have been doing it for awhile, no matter what the difference is camera specs are.

You almost want to have a friendly program to quietly & conveniently convert Arri people to RED like Mac does for Windows users. Loose the Alternative Generation-X feel & approach that alienates so many in my opinion & the RED brand & it's professional users would be served much better.

Mis-information hurts RED credibility. There are several private owners of the Alexa here in the Miami Area. Pat Longman, David Wells, etc. Check them out for yourself.

Why spend $50K more on a car that may does less or is less capable? Because people trust, believe & buy into that well established brand.

I want nothing more than for every job to be shot on RED whether it's my RED camera package or not. Time & time again recently I'm on jobs where Alexa's were chosen over REDs. Too many times putting Alexa's on my crane etc. I was on "The Glades" Episodic TV show last week. 4.5 month shooting schedule @ 5 days a week. They were shooting with 3 Alexas w/ 3 Optimo 24-290s. The prior year they had shot the entire season on REDs. Why they changed to Alexas I do not know. Bummed me out though.

The Alexa competition is certainly real & is costing RED & likewise RED owners / operators jobs. Even though RED specs beat the hell out of Alexa on paper it's not always about that. People like to feel confidence in a brand that they feel they can trust. This takes a long time to build & I don't always think that the RED rebellion way of doing things is the quickest way to win over old school well respected Arri users. I do not think a lot of the useless banter generated on this forum helps either. People please let the experts talk & be heard. If you have a relevant question or thought go for it. If your into giving countless virtual hi-fives & pats on the back... park it. Kills people like me that only want to go on here to find relevant information. (There are way too many countless butt-kissing posters eating up space & time here on the RED forum)

Final Comments slightly off my original topic: (sorry for such a long post, rarely do I post)

I also think there is an over emphasis with RED on Feature films. Many people want to do one sure, but the reality is, is that the bulk of production work lies far outside of feature & theatrical releases. Commercials, TV Shows, Corporate work, music videos, etc. I'm sure this vastly outweighs feature work. While the huge achievements have been made in the feature world with the RED System, I do not think that RED should undersell the rest & probably majority of the market place. Working in RAW up until the very end of post isn't all that realistic for the million or so of us on Final Cut Pro users that need fast turn-arounds & real time editing. Converting my RAW to ProRes up front via the Rocket for post is the best most realistic solution for me. Non-Feature world majority FCP user here...

Final note: Supply chain. No more forward looking announcements. probably a good thing in my opinion. The very extended wait is far to painful for many & with the inevitable delays it makes RED appear unstable / unreliable & fuel for the nay-sayers. Media Options?... It shocks me that the entire RED Camera system is expected to be held up by small CF cards as the only media option. This is by far the weakest, least talked about link in my opinion. RED Drives banished, & no real availability of SSD Media. (extremely limited quantities out there) CF cards are far too slow, limiting & too time consuming on set. Hold off on every new product in my opinion until you fix the biggest achilles tendon of the whole RED program. Get fast, large capacity media out there in real numbers and perhaps some of these jobs wouldn't be swinging to Alexa.

Make no mistake, I have a huge admiration for Jim Jannard for changing the path of the film / video production world & risking his own personal finances & health over all of this. Jim is like Richard Branson risking huge amounts of personal wealth to take on a fairly monopolized industry. Ultimately delivering a much better product.

My points, comments & time in all of this is, is that I want RED to be a stronger more trusted company that insures confidence to the Arri mindset & appeals to the greater masses as a whole. We will all certainly benefit from this.

Russell

www.southeastcameracranes.com
www.fdipro.com

[Francesco Bonomo]

especially in and around my ow Country were people are greatly been misled!!

I'm sorry Ketch, I understand it's off topic, and I don't know who your sources are, but I feel like that's a false statement. No rental houses are pushing one camera instead of another, and I haven't seen any negative advertisement coming from any company. Just check what the main rental houses are offering, give them a call, and see for yourself. Here in Italy, as I guess anywhere else, we have many options to choose from. Red is one of them. Some people pick Red, some people pick Alexa, others pick DSLRs, and others pick 16 or 35mm film. We have the infrastructure for all digital shoots, as well as a strong film-based tradition, with the great labs of Technicolor and Cinecittà. It depends on many factors, just like everywhere else.

[Gunleik Groven]

Interesting and well thought post Russel.

And I agree that the lack of SSDs/Media is hurting RED more in the vs Alexa category than any foultalk do.
Yes we can shoot cards.
Nope, it isn't the answer for all productions, even though it worked on Pirates. :-)

[KETCH ROSSi]

I'm sorry Ketch, I understand it's off topic, and I don't know who your sources are, but I feel like that's a false statement. No rental houses are pushing one camera instead of another, and I haven't seen any negative advertisement coming from any company. Just check what the main rental houses are offering, give them a call, and see for yourself. Here in Italy, as I guess anywhere else, we have many options to choose from. Red is one of them. Some people pick Red, some people pick Alexa, others pick DSLRs, and others pick 16 or 35mm film. We have the infrastructure for all digital shoots, as well as a strong film-based tradition, with the great labs of Technicolor and Cinecittà. It depends on many factors, just like everywhere else.

Francesco, unfortunately even so not directly in person, at list not in Italy and or Europe since I have been far form it for years, but I have been getting
reports form many sources, trusted sources, that Alexa is pushed in favor of Red, not only with false accusation that Red workflow is a Pain, but also for the
simple fact that the Rental houses make more money on Alexa then they do on RED ONE, those that go on DSLR are not of interest as they will never
have the budget for anything else, or they go DSLR for reason specific to their needs in the size and form factor, or they simply see absolutely no need to have better images.

Again, I am not saying that all do it, but many do, and it is an unprofessional way of carrying business, however what I am saying is that without
a strong voice showcasing the obvious it is easy to be misled, but this I promise will change soon in off, and Europe will never see RED inn the same way, that I can promise... ;)

[Ed David]

Commenting on your line Jim...

"Arri is a 70 year old company. RED is a 5 year old company. RED is scary. Arri apparently is not."

I feel compelled to comment, Being at NAB last Wednesday & going to the RED booth I was disappointed that the RED booth felt like some type of check out our generation-X club / group and not a serious high end camera company.

Tattoo booth?... I understand wanting the Oakley feel & approach but I really think that this sometimes cheapens the RED brand. We're not selling sun glasses here to people hoping to be cool. This "RED Rebellion" attitude stuff unfortunately scares away a lot of good & well respected DPs, ACs, Producers, Directors, Key Grips, etc. that have been working with & feeling great confidence in Arri products for many years. All that it takes is in one conversation for someone to knock a camera system one way or the other for the job to swing that way. It shouldn't be the case, but certainly often is.

RED Staffers standing around seeming like they were a little too cool for everyone else, Tattoo guys sitting around in the Tattoo area doing nothing but texting on their phones. In the showroom area, there was a huge pile / mess of random cage / accessory parts in the corner on a cart & counter. (frick'n mess, this was on Wednesday by the way) I walked up to at least three Reps standing behind display cases talking to people asking questions & almost every time they were saying something to the effect of "yeah we don't know when that will be ready / out" This does not instill confidence to the many non-believers. I am not judging, only offering my true personal observations / feelings in comparison to visiting other vendors at NAB.

Let me clarify my position & reasoning for my message here. I'm a huge believer in the RED program. I'm a RED owner / Operator for 3 years. I have the ONE, all 7 RPPs, RED Rocket, and high end tools like my Scropio Telescopic crane (It's basically a Technocrane on Steroids, there's only 4 of them in the U.S.) What I've found to be a key in my survival growth & success is the selling of confidence to my clients. There are many people with RED packages that will go out cheaper than I but what wins clients over to me is the confidence that I instill in them as a company. Many of my clients would like to save money indeed, but in the end they choose to feel that they have insurance policy that this project isn't going to blow up in their face along the way. I think that the Arri brand instills this same confidence in many people, especially ones that have been doing it for awhile, no matter what the difference is camera specs are.

You almost want to have a friendly program to quietly & conveniently convert Arri people to RED like Mac does for Windows users. Loose the Alternative Generation-X feel & approach that alienates so many in my opinion & the RED brand & it's professional users would be served much better.

Mis-information hurts RED credibility. There are several private owners of the Alexa here in the Miami Area. Pat Longman, David Wells, etc. Check them out for yourself.

Why spend $50K more on a car that may does less or is less capable? Because people trust, believe & buy into that well established brand.

I want nothing more than for every job to be shot on RED whether it's my RED camera package or not. Time & time again recently I'm on jobs where Alexa's were chosen over REDs. Too many times putting Alexa's on my crane etc. I was on "The Glades" Episodic TV show last week. 4.5 month shooting schedule @ 5 days a week. They were shooting with 3 Alexas w/ 3 Optimo 24-290s. The prior year they had shot the entire season on REDs. Why they changed to Alexas I do not know. Bummed me out though.

The Alexa competition is certainly real & is costing RED & likewise RED owners / operators jobs. Even though RED specs beat the hell out of Alexa on paper it's not always about that. People like to feel confidence in a brand that they feel they can trust. This takes a long time to build & I don't always think that the RED rebellion way of doing things is the quickest way to win over old school well respected Arri users. I do not think a lot of the useless banter generated on this forum helps either. People please let the experts talk & be heard. If you have a relevant question or thought go for it. If your into giving countless virtual hi-fives & pats on the back... park it. Kills people like me that only want to go on here to find relevant information. (There are way too many countless butt-kissing posters eating up space & time here on the RED forum)

Final Comments slightly off my original topic: (sorry for such a long post, rarely do I post)

I also think there is an over emphasis with RED on Feature films. Many people want to do one sure, but the reality is, is that the bulk of production work lies far outside of feature & theatrical releases. Commercials, TV Shows, Corporate work, music videos, etc. I'm sure this vastly outweighs feature work. While the huge achievements have been made in the feature world with the RED System, I do not think that RED should undersell the rest & probably majority of the market place. Working in RAW up until the very end of post isn't all that realistic for the million or so of us on Final Cut Pro users that need fast turn-arounds & real time editing. Converting my RAW to ProRes up front via the Rocket for post is the best most realistic solution for me. Non-Feature world majority FCP user here...

Final note: Supply chain. No more forward looking announcements. probably a good thing in my opinion. The very extended wait is far to painful for many & with the inevitable delays it makes RED appear unstable / unreliable & fuel for the nay-sayers. Media Options?... It shocks me that the entire RED Camera system is expected to be held up by small CF cards as the only media option. This is by far the weakest, least talked about link in my opinion. RED Drives banished, & no real availability of SSD Media. (extremely limited quantities out there) CF cards are far too slow, limiting & too time consuming on set. Hold off on every new product in my opinion until you fix the biggest achilles tendon of the whole RED program. Get fast, large capacity media out there in real numbers and perhaps some of these jobs wouldn't be swinging to Alexa.

Make no mistake, I have a huge admiration for Jim Jannard for changing the path of the film / video production world & risking his own personal finances & health over all of this. Jim is like Richard Branson risking huge amounts of personal wealth to take on a fairly monopolized industry. Ultimately delivering a much better product.

My points, comments & time in all of this is, is that I want RED to be a stronger more trusted company that insures confidence to the Arri mindset & appeals to the greater masses as a whole. We will all certainly benefit from this.

Russell

www.southeastcameracranes.com
www.fdipro.com

Well said stuff. Except the Epic is going to kick ass. The Alexa right now is getting used a lot on non feature film work because it has an easier UI and workflow than Red One and all the supplies and support are right there. However once the Epic comes out, then the game is going to change.

[Ivan McCullough]

I said this on the deleted "Joke of the Day" thread....

Most rental houses, even if they stock RED were going to push Alexa over RED for one simple reason. The RED owner/operators ate into their business pretty seriously.

Any camera that was going to threaten that was going to be pushed by rental houses.

Also, if you should keep RED footage in RAW until delivery then post is easier (and cheaper) with Alexa. (waiting to get flamed for that but any extra step in post is more time and therefore more $$$)

@Russell Fogle, agree 100%, well said.

[Felix K.]

Well said, Russell.

[Brett Reynolds]

Thank you Russell. This isn't a "pat on the back", just a person that agrees with every word you typed !