Thread: DCP- from Scratch ( workflow ) ?

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  1. #1 DCP- from Scratch ( workflow ) ? 
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    hi RED forum,

    just finished the movie here , and now i have to make the output for DCP. The guy in cinema just required me as JPEG2000 files.
    what i wanna ask here :

    1. what is the good method for DCP from scratch ? - guess DCP base 24fps , so i must make the dpx output as 24 fps ?
    2. or i send to FCP as DPX files based on 25fps then later on converting inside FCP into QT-jpeg2000?
    3. should i apply LUT ?
    4. and what the rest i must concern about ?
    hope someone with Master Guru level here can help me .

    I tried to look on the site about this case , without any convinced method.
    so i hope anyone here could make a liitle light for me, please.

    best regards

    kito
    Last edited by kito; 04-09-2011 at 07:21 PM. Reason: forget to mention some other things
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  2. #2 easyDCP? 
    Senior Member Dan Hudgins's Avatar
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    When you go from 23.976 or 25 to 24 you don't frame rate convert, you adjust the length of the audio WAV files. Frames don't have a frame rate.

    Some DCP seem to be at gamma 2.6 (does anyone know why?), so you need to take that into account in making your DPX frames, DPX can be graded 100% or LOG-C 95-685 and other ways, so you need to know how you are going to get to the final DCP projection frames and what LUT are in use.

    Have you used easyDCP player before (to check the DCP)?

    http://www.iis.fraunhofer.de/en/bf/bv/dc/pp/
    Dan Hudgins is developing "Freeish" 6K+ NLE/CC/DI/MIX File based Editing for uncompressed DI, multitrack sound mixing, integrated color correction, DIY Movie film scanning, and DIY Movie filmrecorder software for Digital Cinema. RED (tm) footage can be edited 6K, 5K, 4.5K, 4K, 3K, 2K, or 1080p etc. see http://www.DANCAD3D.com/S0620200.HTM (sm) for workflow steps.
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  3. #3  
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    hi Dan, thank you for your quick respons, i appreciated much

    1. When you go from 23.976 or 25 to 24 you don't frame rate convert, you adjust the length of the audio WAV files. Frames don't have a frame rate.


    - so my project based on 25fps, so i dont have to convert it into 24 fps (is that your point right,Dan ?)

    2.Some DCP seem to be at gamma 2.6 (does anyone know why?), so you need to take that into account in making your DPX frames, DPX can be graded 100% or LOG-C 95-685 and other ways, so you need to know how you are going to get to the final DCP projection frames and what LUT are in use.

    - so inside Scratch, i wanna set all my DPX files as Gamma 2.6, so how about the LUT ? should i apply it or no ? and if it should, Whut most LUT commonly used for DCP transfer? based on my DPX files.


    3.Have you used easyDCP player before (to check the DCP)?

    - this is a great information Dan. no i never use this.


    ok Dan, i just need a little more steps about the LUT, that's all.

    and Thank you for your effort.

    cheers
    kito
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  4. #4  
    Senior Member Dan Hudgins's Avatar
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    What I ment about the fps issue, is that if you output frames shot at 23.976 or 25 to be used in a DCP as 24.000fps, you can just output the frames as whole frames, if you try to do interpolation to convert the total frames count to be as if it was shot at 24.000fps then you get interpolation artifacts. There is the issue of the motion and sound being a bit off if you go from 25 down to 24 or 23.976 up to, but that needs to be compared to frame interpolation artifacts going the other way. There is also some pitch shift with the sound, if you use non-pitch shift then you can get some artifacts from the sound length adjustment. When you use a frame set shot at one fps and played at another fps, the SMPTE time code from the camera will display faster or slower on the playback, so you cannot get the total run time for the edit from the camera fps time code (unless you figure by the ratio of the camera to projector fps).

    About the gamma used in the projection frames, you will need to look at the easyDCP Creator documentation to see what options it has for its conversion (ingest) of the DPX into the needed result. I was just giving a heads up about the projection gamma since if you show gamma 2.2 images on a gamma 2.6 projector the shadow areas will be too dark, unless the projector has a LUT set in it to compensate.

    Post back again and tell what you learn when you get things working.
    Dan Hudgins is developing "Freeish" 6K+ NLE/CC/DI/MIX File based Editing for uncompressed DI, multitrack sound mixing, integrated color correction, DIY Movie film scanning, and DIY Movie filmrecorder software for Digital Cinema. RED (tm) footage can be edited 6K, 5K, 4.5K, 4K, 3K, 2K, or 1080p etc. see http://www.DANCAD3D.com/S0620200.HTM (sm) for workflow steps.
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  5. #5 DCP being for gamma 2.6 projectors 
    Senior Member Dan Hudgins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kito View Post
    - so inside Scratch, i wanna set all my DPX files as Gamma 2.6, so how about the LUT ? should i apply it or no ? and if it should, Whut most LUT commonly used for DCP transfer? based on my DPX files.
    I noticed this in the side part from the ARRI link above:

    Quote: [A digital projector has a higher gamma than a monitor because projected images in a dark surround need another characteristic than images viewed in a dim surround. The system transfer function resulting from using a DLP projector instead of a monitor is shown in the blue curve.]

    It seems that they are saying that no compensation is needed, but when I see DLP projection here, the image do look at bit dark and lacking in shadow detail, maybe because they have so many lights on in the theatre to avoid trip and fall issues.

    I would shoot a 18% gray card under the lighting you are using, and check that it does not read too low in the graded frames, if you convert the graded frames to BMP you should read 18% gray as about 0.458 to 0.462 or RGB= 116 to 118 or so on the 0 to 255 scale. The shareware program IRFANVIEW has a readout if you put the cursor on a spot on the image and click the mouse button it then reads out the R= G= B= value for that pixel,

    http://www.irfanview.com/

    If you are near midtone then it should not matter so much what gamma your viewing monitor is at, the pixel value is a better way to tell because the monitor brightness and contrast change the way the image looks anyway, you would hope the DCP projector is setup right in the theatre...
    Dan Hudgins is developing "Freeish" 6K+ NLE/CC/DI/MIX File based Editing for uncompressed DI, multitrack sound mixing, integrated color correction, DIY Movie film scanning, and DIY Movie filmrecorder software for Digital Cinema. RED (tm) footage can be edited 6K, 5K, 4.5K, 4K, 3K, 2K, or 1080p etc. see http://www.DANCAD3D.com/S0620200.HTM (sm) for workflow steps.
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  6. #6  
    RED TEAM Stacey Spears's Avatar
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    Some DCP seem to be at gamma 2.6 (does anyone know why
    The DCinema spec defines 2.6 as the display gamma. In October, the ITU agreed upon 2.4 for the display gamma for 601 and 709. It's been undefined until now. They stated that a display gamma was not needed because everyone was using CRTs, which were inherently 2.4. Now that everything is transitioning to digital displays, the gamma needed to be defined, because they are all over the map. Anywhere from 1.9 to 2.8.

    Right now the ITU is not finished. While they defined the display gamma, there are still several items undefined. Hopefully that will be resolved before the end of the year.
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  7. #7  
    Senior Member Dan Hudgins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Spears View Post
    In October, the ITU agreed upon 2.4 for the display gamma for 601 and 709. It's been undefined until now.
    Thanks for the info. I wonder if that puts off the 709 results from REDCINE-X? RED said they use about 46% for 18% gray before, at gamma 2.4 it would need to be 0.489 or 49%?

    What is the default gamma for SD and HD video and monitors (I guess 2.4 now)?

    Do you have any links about this new gamma 2.4 "standard" and what it means for making "monitor gamma" RGB files?

    I found this on the ARRI site,

    http://www.acvl.org/digital_intermed...nion/ch05.html

    Quote: [ The Digital Cinema Initiative (DCI) recommends to run the projector with a gamma of 2.6. The characteristic curve of a DLP tuned to this recommendation is similar to the curve of a CRT monitor.]

    But they say the 18% factor for ITU is 0.45 not 0.49, so is that just for encoding not the monitor its viewed on?

    Quote: [The recommendation ITU-R BT.709 specifies the encoding of luminance values with a power function where the gamma value is 0.45,]

    1/0.45 = 2.22, or gamma 2.22 correction

    Is the 709 encoding value still 1/2.22 and the display 2.4? Or will the encoding value also be changed to 1/2.4?
    Dan Hudgins is developing "Freeish" 6K+ NLE/CC/DI/MIX File based Editing for uncompressed DI, multitrack sound mixing, integrated color correction, DIY Movie film scanning, and DIY Movie filmrecorder software for Digital Cinema. RED (tm) footage can be edited 6K, 5K, 4.5K, 4K, 3K, 2K, or 1080p etc. see http://www.DANCAD3D.com/S0620200.HTM (sm) for workflow steps.
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  8. #8  
    RED TEAM Stacey Spears's Avatar
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    I will follow-up after NAB. it's not a lot of fun to type on an iPad.

    sRGB defined both source and display gamma. 709 only defined the source gamma. 709 LUTs are based on that source value.

    Condumer LCDs are all over the map when it comes to gamma. Computer LCDs are another matter.
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  9. #9  
    RED TEAM Stacey Spears's Avatar
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    This PDF will give you some of the background. http://www.poynton.com/notes/PU-PR-I...n-PU-PR-IS.pdf
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  10. #10  
    Senior Member Dan Hudgins's Avatar
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    Ok, then I read that as the encoding gamma is still 1/2.22 or 0.45 for 709?

    And for DCP its encoded 1/2.6 or 0.3846?

    that makes the question, why do they want the monitor at 2.4 and the encoding at 1/2.22 (I guess because they never matched in the CRT days as well, so keep the mismatch into the future), and if they wanted the DCI projector to match a CRT monitor then why is it 2.6 and not 2.4.
    Dan Hudgins is developing "Freeish" 6K+ NLE/CC/DI/MIX File based Editing for uncompressed DI, multitrack sound mixing, integrated color correction, DIY Movie film scanning, and DIY Movie filmrecorder software for Digital Cinema. RED (tm) footage can be edited 6K, 5K, 4.5K, 4K, 3K, 2K, or 1080p etc. see http://www.DANCAD3D.com/S0620200.HTM (sm) for workflow steps.
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