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  1. #41  
    Senior Member Julio Quintana's Avatar
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    This was exactly what we needed. Thanks guys.

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  2. #42  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jannard View Post
    Agree...

    Jim
    Thought you might....

    Actually, these new compression options are a lot more significant than many here would probably think. In the television world, efficiency is key. That means quick backups, ease of transport, ease of processing, and ease of data recovery for post production. That's where the original Redcode variants (28, and later, 36) really shine, as they allow for surprisingly small files with little to no downside in terms of grading or matte extraction capabilities for an HD resolution finishing path. They can be stored, copied, and, yes, sent over high speed data networks (including Internet based transports) with relative ease and in a reasonable time frame, allowing, for instance, last minute pickups on a show shot in Toronto to be sent for both editorial and conform in Los Angeles without a physical delivery and its attendant delays when necessary (gee, I wonder what show I'm thinking of here? Hmmmmm....). But in the feature world, one of the knocks on Red has always been the rather significant compression ratios, which at least in theory cause a bit of loss in high frequency detail as well as unnatural noise, particularly in the blue channel, that in turn can cause some issues with matte extractions for large screen presentation. Personally, I've always felt that these problems were largely addressed with the new sensor design, but I have seen some evidence of these issues, albeit very, very rare. However, introducing the lower compression ratios more directly addresses that objection, and having both allows for tailored work paths for different projects, and more directly differentiates and answers the needs of television and features based on each one's reality. It's no longer a good camera for television but a questionable one for big features, or vice versa. It's both in one package.

    Now, all you need is that ProRes/DNxHD recording module and you'll be all set....(there's that damn television mindset again.....)
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  #43  
    Red Leader Jannard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M Most View Post
    Thought you might....

    Actually, these new compression options are a lot more significant than many here would probably think. In the television world, efficiency is key. That means quick backups, ease of transport, ease of processing, and ease of data recovery for post production. That's where the original Redcode variants (28, and later, 36) really shine, as they allow for surprisingly small files with little to no downside in terms of grading or matte extraction capabilities for an HD resolution finishing path. They can be stored, copied, and, yes, sent over high speed data networks (including Internet based transports) with relative ease and in a reasonable time frame, allowing, for instance, last minute pickups on a show shot in Toronto to be sent for both editorial and conform in Los Angeles without a physical delivery and its attendant delays when necessary (gee, I wonder what show I'm thinking of here? Hmmmmm....). But in the feature world, one of the knocks on Red has always been the rather significant compression ratios, which at least in theory cause a bit of loss in high frequency detail as well as unnatural noise, particularly in the blue channel, that in turn can cause some issues with matte extractions for large screen presentation. Personally, I've always felt that these problems were largely addressed with the new sensor design, but I have seen some evidence of these issues, albeit very, very rare. However, introducing the lower compression ratios more directly addresses that objection, and having both allows for tailored work paths for different projects, and more directly differentiates and answers the needs of television and features based on each one's reality. It's no longer a good camera for television but a questionable one for big features, or vice versa. It's both in one package.

    Now, all you need is that ProRes/DNxHD recording module and you'll be all set....(there's that damn television mindset again.....)
    Mike... further to your perspective, when you shoot high frame rates to an SSD the compression numbers need to rise (data rate thing). Some will complain that they are forced to shoot 10:1 (or whatever)... when that has proven to give a great image for the past 3 years.

    Jim
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  4. #44  
    Moderator Gunleik Groven's Avatar
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    But then you have the option to record 4k 16:9 and still get a bit less compresssion, right?

    Maybe even 4kHD...
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  #45  
    Red Leader Jannard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunleik Groven View Post
    But then you have the option to record 4k 16:9 and still get a bit less compresssion, right?

    Maybe even 4kHD...
    Sure...

    Jim
    "The camera is arguably one of the most important of all inventions… it is the single tool that has the ability to stop time, record history, generate art, tell stories, and communicate messages that transcend language like nothing else ever conceived."

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  6. #46  
    Senior Member Steve Sherrick's Avatar
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    I have found RC 42 to show some worthy improvement and when using it in 4KHD mode it is perfect for me. Yes, some additional data to backup but some nicer quality. And 4.5k mode at RC42 is beautiful. So, in general I agree with Mike that if the quality of RC 28 and RC 36 is good enough, then shows might as well stick with it. However if data rate is not the issue and quality is a bigger factor, opt for RC42. Jim, thanks for giving us the options!
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  7. #47  
    Senior Member Shawn Nelson's Avatar
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    Im very curious to get to see some tests...

    To me, RC42 looks absolutely amazing, whether it's faces, greenscreen elements or vfx plates, and since that is 7.5:1...why would we EVER need 5:1? In fact, most of the time on Red I cant even tell the difference between RC36 and RC42...so just in between 9:1 and 7.5:1 we are WAY into the tail or diminishing returns. Again, so why would we ever want to record at 5:1? To me it sounds like 7:1, 8:1 or 9:1 is the sweet range for Epic, not 5:1.
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  8. #48  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Sherrick View Post
    I have found RC 42 to show some worthy improvement and when using it in 4KHD mode it is perfect for me. Yes, some additional data to backup but some nicer quality. And 4.5k mode at RC42 is beautiful. So, in general I agree with Mike that if the quality of RC 28 and RC 36 is good enough, then shows might as well stick with it. However if data rate is not the issue and quality is a bigger factor, opt for RC42. Jim, thanks for giving us the options!
    Define "worthy improvement." I'm not doubting you, I'm just interested in what you see that causes you to say that.
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  9. #49  
    Moderator Gunleik Groven's Avatar
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    I am a bit curious, too.

    I'd love to see some A/B examples...

    (haven't run any of those on RC 42 myself)
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  #50  
    Red Leader Jannard's Avatar
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    Funny... since we are dealing with the big dogs now, some of which were not really RED fans, the lower compression option seems to be a big factor in them "looking again" at RED. I'm not sure if it is real or a justification but it doesn't matter.

    The truth is that there is a steep curve of improvement with lower compression starting at 20:1 (acceptable) to about 7:1. After that the curve noses over. While there continues to be improvement to 5:1, it becomes almost impossible to see much of a difference from there to 3:1... just more data to deal with. So when we say 5:1 is the "sweet spot", that is the very best image we can get at the best data rate. Others will argue (successfully) that 7:1 or 8:1 is just perfect. And at a much lower data rate.

    My bet is that many will pull out the microscope and test this to death so I'm not concerned that everyone will have a clear picture in a short amount of time.

    I personally landed on 5:1 as my pick... but yesterday switched to 6:1. I'm sure everyone will have a favorite given different conditions.

    Jim
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