Who is RED?

[AnthonyFlores]

Jim,

What's interesting is that I think the recent drama on the boards
only proves you're on the right track with your statement -- nearly
all those who are most upset and rude about the delays/price
increases are those not really in your target market of professionals.

Obviously, EVERYONE is frustrated on some level (none more than
you guys at Red!) ... but as for those who get priced out of the
game by radically improved new features with modest price
increases, it's impossible for Red to cater to their needs.

Bottom line: Whether it's Epic, Scarlet or any other camera in the
future line ... people need to be making money with their camera gear,
or at the very least need to see it as a worthwhile sacrifice/investment
in their future, their career or their art. PERIOD.

I understand about budgets and how money can be scarce --
I've been there but if you, Jim, keep protecting Red's branding and
strong position amongst professionals -- it will only help to ensure
everyone can make more money from their Red gear going forward.

I will start a separate thread in the DMSC section about budgeting
and making money from Red gear so those who are concerned
about pricing can perhaps see how Red owners are profiting from
their cameras, and perhaps open their horizons about how they
might be able to finance their gear at whatever the final prices
are.

Thanks again Jim,

Anthony

[Kris Anderson]

No more "soccer mom" thinking. Pros only. Life is short and the clock is ticking.

Hallelujah.

Much respect for drawing that line in the sand.

[Elsie N]

... but as for those who get priced out of the
game by radically improved new features with modest price
increases, it's impossible for Red to cater to their needs.

If I were a guessing man... and I am... I would guess that most of the threats to buy another brand of camera were just that... idle threats. I presume there's no way to ever know but I bet (guess) that a large majority of them will be HDRx™™ enabled Scarlet owners as soon as the camera hits the shelves.

ADDITIONAL: I also would guess that Scarlet sales acheived a net gain with the announcement of the inclusion of HDRx boards and ASIC.

[Frank Jonen]

So RED is a pro-tool? What else is new? ;)

If I'm OK with my skintones clipping to yellow whenever a light gets close to the actor I go for Canon. If I'm OK with steppy eye-lashes in close-ups, I go for a Canon. If I don't want all of that but I'm OK with edge and bokeh banding and skin tones not having detail, I go for a D7000. (Yes I used a D7000, was one of the first ones to shoot tests with it).

If I'm sick and tired of these compromises and am not on silly budget, I rent a RED. So far RED is the only workflow where the scale is close to even from a post production point of view. When working with RED footage I don't need to fix the image before I can go to work. So the first week of post actually IS post. Not pre-post fixing. With the HDRx being readily available soon (soon, right?) it'll even bring down cost on sky replacement needs (unless for creative reasons).

Now if you mention any of this with HD DSLR fanboys present you get lashed at for being an elitist f*ck. Apparently wanting great quality pictures is something to be ashamed of in these circles. [ergo: DSLR users = Pro | above that = Elitist]

Yes I can make pretty pictures without a RED using Canon or Nikon cams, I can also piss in the Black Sea till it's ochre. That's not the point. It's about how much effort and time needs to be put in to achieve a great result. To me and probably a bunch of people here just 'good' is not a desirable outcome, 'good' just means, not crap but also not great and not standing out of the crowd. With the HDRx, RED is raising the bar on what 'good' means and some people have a problem with that. Like one of my teachers used to say "Good is the little sister of rubbish" :)

Also the 'high' cost of a RED. Some people buy a HD DSLR and only shoot for 2 - 5 days a year. Looking at the rental rates for a RED One these days vs overall cost that money could have been better spend I'd think.


End of rant. :)

[Elan Gunos]

I think you hit the nail on the head, youre completly right,

An unfortunate elitist attitude has now arisen. Its very sad that couldn't do it. Everyone says it would never be done for that price range. If you want to paint it as 'were being professional' instead then so be it,

But its not about whos professional its about what you can afford so you can have your 'professional' status.

Backaward thinking indeed from the rich for the rich.

Scarlet is indeed dead.

I hope you guys are kidding because this is too funny.

10-15k (Scarlet, accessories, etc) is a lot of money, yes, but it is not by any stretch of the imagination elite or rich. Remember a used Honda civic can be barely had for 10-15k. Last time I checked the freeway was chock-full of them.

Reality check, television and motion picture equipment is insane to begin with, if not prohibitively expensive. In an industry of insane prices, Red is probably the only beacon of hope.

If you think you can find solace with Sony, Canon, Panasonic, et al., think again. These guys have been in the business for decades, with capabilities and resources far exceeding Red, yet they haven't produce anything that remotely resembles the Red in price and performance.

[Eric S.]

It sounds like there's a lot of soul-searching happening right now over at RED, but I don't think it's over... or warranted.

Assertion 1: The Scarlet, with or without HDRx, is poised to be a high-end professional camera with a prosumer price tag. Compare a future Scarlet to even an aging EX1, and most of us would agree that there's really no comparison... except for price. And that's incredible.

Assertion 2: The Epic looks to be a marquee technological wonder that will push many of the boundaries of digital image acquisition. A cutting-edge camera with a prodigious price / performance ratio that will be deployed by thousands of professionals around the world.

In spite of the recent protests over the Scarlet's price increase, both of those assertions still hold true. I contend that Jim has overreacted to recent negativity on the forum and has spoken too hastily. If Scarlet is released in a form and market similar to the one we know today, a plethora of prosumers, indys, and entry-level professionals will still flock to it. Thus, Jim's statement that RED only caters "to the professional market" is either specious, short-sighted, or purely semantic.

If RED truly meant to only serve a pro market, then a 2/3" fixed Scarlet seems like a terrible branding blow. You could argue that the entire Scarlet line represents an affront to pro-only branding. Adding HDRx to Scarlet certainly muddied the waters too.

What's my takeaway? As long as Scarlet exists, RED caters to a broad market, intentionally or not. That's good for me and the "sub-pro" market, but it's not and never has been a "soccer mom" market; even the loosest interpretation of "3k for $3k" precludes serious thoughts along that line. Thus, I sympathize with Jim's reaction to some unfortunate backlash, but offer a third assertion to ameliorate his previous comments:

Assertion 3: You don't have to make a sub-professional product to serve a market that reaches beyond professionals.

I personally hope RED doesn't forsake the DVXuser crowd, because Scarlet still looks great to many of us and more.

[Kris Anderson]

All speculation, of course, but I wonder if RED has decided to stay away from the "soccer moms" because of the chronic service/aftermarket support headache it would create. Guarantee you would have every man and his wedding video dog on the forums bitching and moaning that they can't figure out the workflow. What a drain on time and resources that would be.

Just a thought.

I totally think this is a good move by RED. Sorts out the men from the boys, so to speak.

[alex lemon]

the interesting thing to me is that the majority of the people on these boards are probably not "professionals".

[Terry VerHaar]

...


I personally hope RED doesn't forsake the DVXuser crowd, because Scarlet still looks great to many of us and more.

I believe the point Jim was making is that the "DVXuser crowd" (as you call them) is more than welcome to come along on HIS ride; he's just not going to lower his sights to be along on theirs. Just my interpretation.

[Elan Gunos]

All speculation, of course, but I wonder if RED has decided to stay away from the "soccer moms" because of the chronic service/aftermarket support headache it would create. Guarantee you would have every man and his wedding video dog on the forums bitching and moaning that they can't figure out the workflow. What a drain on time and resources that would be.

Just a thought.

I totally think this is a good move by RED. Sorts out the men from the boys, so to speak.

+1

Good point, I can see it already "Hello, Red? I bought this Red camera because it was all the rage, and I was wondering how I can disable this RAW mode thing. Can't I just shoot mpeg or something, I need to email my son's birthday party video to his grandmother pronto"