RED - DSLRs and where the market is heading.

[Paul Leeming]

There's a lot of (inaccurate) hype surrounding the whole DSLR/digital segment at the moment... but I wouldn't say it's purely linked to the price argument (look at the cases here when RED and 5D quotes have been the same). The closest analogy I could find would be... the 5D is in fashion right now. I find it hard to be believe there could be fads and trends in the camera industry for non -cost and -quality related reasons... but it seems there are.

I think this is a lot of the case too, having suffered the same kind of job loss to the 5D MkII.

The upside of this is that when Epic hits, those who are into the latest fashion cameras will all jump ship and we'll benefit. Hopefully at that point the resulting footage will also blow people away anew such that they realise that the Canons, while fine for web video etc, just don't hold a candle (literally - see this thread) to Red.

Cheers,

Paul

[Vladimir Cassel]

Maybe you want to be a scriptwriter, and that's a great goal, but "technical mumbo jumbo" is THE JOB of a DOP, a post-production supervisor, and many other important people on a film. I suggest you give what they do its due respect, them their due respect, and they will respond in kind.

that said, 5Ds are whatevers are GREAT student tools. They're just not really high-grade pro ones.

They do have my respect. But I do feel I'm right in my recent shift away from facts and figures and towards actually feeling. As far as scripted narrative is concerned I just think story, understanding of that story through analysis with the talent, trust and collaboration with the talent, and communication with the talent are more important than the tools used. And I think that mastery of those things will show more if I'm a pro or not than what camera I use.

[Mark Andersen]

I think what Bob is saying is that it takes a village to make a film. It is the job of the DP's in that village to be technical and concerned about cameras, lights and gear so that producers and screenwriters and actors don't have to. The students of film are immersed in the study of the whole art form and process and can therefore take a much broader view of film making. I was a student once too, and really always will be. But in the real world there are specialists in every department, that everyone else relies on to know their stuff. On this form those specialists are predominately DP's, AC's and other camera folks.

[Vladimir Cassel]

I think what Bob is saying is that it takes a village to make a film. It is the job of the DP's in that village to be technical and concerned about cameras, lights and gear so that producers and screenwriters and actors don't have to. The students of film are immersed in the study of the whole art form and process and can therefore take a much broader view of film making. I was a student once too, and really always will be. But in the real world there are specialists in every department, that everyone else relies on to know their stuff. On this form those specialists are predominately DP's, AC's and other camera folks.

Yes, I'm aware of this. Not that I don't think I have a lot to learn from the people and professionals of this board, but I don't feel that that really helps. And I'm not here to advocate for DSLRs either. Truth be told, if I could have any cam right now that would be appropriate for the kind of work I'd like to do it would be the Arri 16mm.

I'm just saying that Red cameras aren't always within the grasp of everyone who has intent and vision. Even the Scarlett will be just out of my budget to own. But that doesn't mean all is lost. In the realm of filmmakers who have no choice, money, or resources of crew other than attempt to be an 'auteur', professionalism is not the sole domain of having great equipment. As many examples exist that professional and exemplary visual narrative can be crafted out of less than professional and exemplary tools. I just hope that you keep the less fortunate of us in mind when you decide to use euphemisms to infer at what cost competence and professionalism comes at.

[Thomas Koch]

I have to say that my 5Dii has a cinematic look. More so than my HVX. But also has a cinematic look. It's just a huge piece of kit. huge post process. EPIC and Scarlet S35 will fix that, but there are just some things that require small cameras, great depth of field, cinematic images, etc.

Scarlet S35 can't get here soon enough. Every day that passes, the more I use the the 5Dii and the more I invest in it. More lenses, batteries, supports, etc.

Yes, technically, the dSLR's are horrible, but they look pretty good, even at 1080 and you can really do digital filmmaking on them. I just wish I could get an S35 Scarlet.

And as soon as Stage 3.5 comes around, i'm getting an EPIC, woot!

[Rob Ruffo]

They do have my respect. But I do feel I'm right in my recent shift away from facts and figures and towards actually feeling. As far as scripted narrative is concerned I just think story, understanding of that story through analysis with the talent, trust and collaboration with the talent, and communication with the talent are more important than the tools used. And I think that mastery of those things will show more if I'm a pro or not than what camera I use.

As a director, maybe (although to me a really good director knows what you list AND tech BOTH), as a writer, maybe, as a DP NO. A DP or post-prod director "who just feels" is a total flake who has no place a pro set.

I'd go as far as to say that even scriptwriting, when done well, has a lot fo math and clear thought. You can't write a watchable film that has no structure, no logic, no clear thought.

Cinema is not a hippie art form. Cinema requires feeling, sure, but tempered with many tech and mundane realities, from cameras to weather to scheduling to budget.

[Rob Ruffo]

Yes, I'm aware of this. Not that I don't think I have a lot to learn from the people and professionals of this board, but I don't feel that that really helps. And I'm not here to advocate for DSLRs either. Truth be told, if I could have any cam right now that would be appropriate for the kind of work I'd like to do it would be the Arri 16mm.

I'm just saying that Red cameras aren't always within the grasp of everyone who has intent and vision. Even the Scarlett will be just out of my budget to own. But that doesn't mean all is lost. In the realm of filmmakers who have no choice, money, or resources of crew other than attempt to be an 'auteur', professionalism is not the sole domain of having great equipment. As many examples exist that professional and exemplary visual narrative can be crafted out of less than professional and exemplary tools. I just hope that you keep the less fortunate of us in mind when you decide to use euphemisms to infer at what cost competence and professionalism comes at.

I hope I speak for all of us on this forum when I say I in no way look-down on students or people struggling with low budgets, and understand that they have to make all kinds of compromises as best they can. My snide comments are ONLY directed at those who have a lot of money to spend and nonetheless make crappy tool choices.

[Elsie N]

I hope I speak for all of us on this forum when I say I in no way look-down on students or people struggling with low budgets, and understand that they have to make all kinds of compromises as best they can. My snide comments are ONLY directed at those who have a lot of money to spend and nonetheless make crappy tool choices.

No offense taken.

[MichaelHalsell]

......
And as soon as Stage 3.5 comes around, i'm getting an EPIC, woot!

Same here, we've actually adjusted our budget to purchase 2 Epics when the general store opens, partly because of the feature set but mainly not feeling secure that the Scarlet will reach market in a timely fashion.

[Dan Kanes]

I'll say it again...

Red is the new Digital Film.

HDSLR is the new MiniDV.

Remember when people said the XL-1 was revolutionary?

I remember only seeing one piece of content ever filmed on XL1 that I personally enjoyed: 28 days later. That was a cool film. I don't even like horror films - but that was REALLY cool.

It would be nice if the perceived savings of shooting on an HDSLR allowed producers to spend more money on lights, locations, costuming, actors, crew rates, craft service etc... But that is just not the case.

The trend is about three things:

1."more" perceived image quality for less money.
2. Size and weight factors which are a delta to budget and manpower.
3." Famous" people and "big" shows testing with or pledging allegiance to these cameras.

If you can't admit that the idea or zeitgeist of the hdslr is in some way "neat" you are wrong. I can't wait to use a Red designed camera that is smaller. Epic. It will be Epic.

It would be negligent of ME as a cinematographer to use an HDSLR on a shoot that calls for a digital camera with high image quality, and has the necessary budget and manpower to use the camera safely and correctly.