Proxy Module...

[Dominic Jones]

That could happen, but I doubt it.
But think about it.

EPIC BODY
MODULE ADAPTER
BATTERY MODULE
PRO I/O MODULE
PROXY MODULE

That's a pretty big camera, maybe larger than the RED ONE, maybe heavier too as every module requires a case which increases weight and space.
Seems to start to take away from the benfits of the compact design of EPIC right now.

Hi David,

I think the issue is not the possible size of the camera - after all it's a modular system, and many, many folks will be using pretty big rigs based on the Epic for the majority of work, I don't see any reason to insist the camera must always be small, that's just a limitation of it's own. If you want a small camera package, no problem, don't use the modules - that's the beauty of Epic's modular approach! I want a camera that does what I need, and size and weight are rarely major concerns.

The bigger issue for me is workflow, and compatibility. All of these Ki-Pro/Pix-240/etc solutions are workarounds, unfortunately. They won't record off-speed, for a start, and for drama (and often music promos, and even these days more and more documentary and episodical TV, which is where high quality proxies are really, really necessary) many people shoot a pretty large amount of off-speed. They also, currently, won't record full-raster 1080p because it's not what's coming out of the spuds on the Epic. I know that will change, but still...

I'm with you on the lack of excitement about H.264 though - I don't want another format that needs transcoding to play nicely with an NLE, and definitely not one that's too low quality to finish a broadcast show in. I guess Red have done their research here and found a need/desire for it, but I can't see it myself...

For my money, the module you need (and I do think it wants to be a proper Epic Module) is a switchable Pro-Res/DNxHD recorder, recording onto SSD or CF, that will record the frame output by the Epic in 1080p at whatever framerate the camera is recording, with matching TC and Clip Name for conform if desired. Where Alexa is taking chunks out of Red/Epic shows is the ability to go to broadcast very, very quickly with an excellent image. Not as good as one that's had a ton of time spent over it in a grading suite from RAW, no - but pretty bloody close on the kind of post budgets and timescales that broadcast demands. The shows that shoot Alexa are simply never, ever going to migrate to a RAW workflow. They also won't be finishing from H.264 any time soon - so, compete or go find another game. I'd like to compete, personally! Especially given just how great a PR444 image from the Epic could be.

Now I don't know if the above wish-list is possible given the architecture of the Epic, but even if you need to sacrifice the higher framerates (say, above 60fps) to do it, it would be much better than a system which means you need to stick to on-speed shots only.

Just my 0.02, from what I see and hear about the choices people are making and what I'm being asked by Producers, and YMMV, of course...

Cheers,
Dom.

[Mark Pugh]

Well said, Dominic, on every point.
I'm not sure the proxy module is going to happen, though.
It seemed to me to be announced in response to the rise in popularity of the Alexa.
From what I remember:

!) As far as I know, varispeed proxies have never been promised, or even hinted at by Red, in any comments about the Proxy Module.

2) As soon as the Ki Pro mini became functional, Red stated that it became the "default" Proxy generation device from Red's point of view.
There was no "until our Proxy module is available" added to that statement. Which leaves me wondering if a Proxy Module would give any added functionality than a Ki Pro Mini, or a Pix 240.

I hope I'm wrong on both 1) and 2).

[David Battistella]

@ dominic

That's a very considerate and sensible point of view. I want to make it pretty clear that the Modular system is brilliant and it makes total sense. I am just wondering how much this proxy module will make sense.

In terms of the kinds of things that might not be possible lets think about what has to happen.

1. A RAW signal needs to get recorded to SSD
2. That same RAW signal needs to be converted to a Prores 4444 signal with a baked in look, etc. (consider that you need a REDROCKET to do this in almost real time now)
3. The image needs to be SCALED from 5K to 1080P
4. For varispeed the shots need to be framerate converted within a 23.98 timebase (so it's not only capturing the shots but doing an on the fly framerate conversion.
5. All of this needs to happen in RealTime...

I can not speculate on whether getting playback in the EPIC has anything to do with the above challenges or whether it relates to the proxy module but we can see that there is a data bottleneck here. It's just a matter of RAW data.

Remember also that it is called a PROXY module. I take that to mean OFFLINE media NOT ONLINE media as recorded to and ALEXA SxS card.

A proxy module should provide a high quality 720P file that can then be relinked to a proper RAW workflow.

RAW is the cornerstone. Once you make the camera a 1080P camera to compete with ALEXA on TV jobs, well then, it;s a 1080P camera.

I get the argument on all sides, but there are a few things at play.

HARD DATA NEEDS TO BE PROCESSED in real time, just look at what a RR card does and you can start to figure out what has to happen.
A MOVE AWAY FROM RAW is a fundamental change in philosophy.

RAW is there to replace film NOW and into the future. The ALEXA might be serving "a purpose" and filling a gap, but 1080P files it is recording is not fulfilling the job of being the replacement for film which is what RED is striving to do.

The only thing that can "help" is a move toward putting the post hardware (RR CARDS) into as many hands as possible at a tempting price point.

This is especially true now that SCARLET is hitting the market.

David

[Häakon]

That's a very considerate and sensible point of view. I want to make it pretty clear that the Modular system is brilliant and it makes total sense. I am just wondering how much this proxy module will make sense.

I think judging by the popularity of the Ki-pro and PIX devices, there is a clear demand for this kind of product. That to me says it "makes sense." :)

Remember also that it is called a PROXY module. I take that to mean OFFLINE media NOT ONLINE media as recorded to and ALEXA SxS card.

Well, people have different definitions for this stuff. What Alexa calls "online," RED calls laughable. Just because something is ProRes doesn't mean it's "offline."

I think Jim still vastly underestimates the use of 1080p material coming from his cam. I fully support his quest for raising the resolution bar and I also realize that he is mostly surrounded by guys who do high-end cinema work where "4K or bust" makes total sense, but RED cameras are used for a lot more than that. Having onboard, high-quality scaling is something that people would eat up in droves just as they are using less-optimal (for shooting purposes) still glass en masse. I would put money on a module that recorded scaled 1080p and offspeed framerates (not to mention WiFi streaming - don't know why this is getting lost in this shuffle) would sell like HOTCAKES.

RAW is the cornerstone. Once you make the camera a 1080P camera to compete with ALEXA on TV jobs, well then, it;s a 1080P camera.

Kinda beating a dead horse, but that's how many people already use it. Commercials, professional music videos that just end up on the web, high level industrial stuff... none of that is being finished in 4K (nor does it need to be), but it still looks better on Epic than anywhere else.

HARD DATA NEEDS TO BE PROCESSED in real time, just look at what a RR card does and you can start to figure out what has to happen.
A MOVE AWAY FROM RAW is a fundamental change in philosophy.

Well, that's why they call it a "proxy" module. But I do believe people would use it in other ways. Regardless if the footage is used for online or offline purposes, however, it's beneficial to both camps. Kind of silly to restrict that use if it's doable.

The only thing that can "help" is a move toward putting the post hardware (RR CARDS) into as many hands as possible at a tempting price point.

This is especially true now that SCARLET is hitting the market.

This is very valid, and I hope we see a solution to this sooner than later.

[Ryan De Franco]

There's a point where Alexa competition means little and concern for the Red user base means everything. I think this is where Jim and Red are operating from right now--Alexa can dominate broadcast TV and compete fairly in feature production; it's made by Arri, after all.

Red knows they do not need television in order to thrive. The potential is there, but with the release of Scarlet, Red has proven themselves to be most concerned with independent filmmakers operating at a professional level. Studios and 8-digit indies, sure!--but we are the broad user base.

If some sort of proxy module comes out it, my guess is it will be designed for integration into a RAW workflow. Not an Alexa competitor-device but a simplified process for dailies, as originally announced.

[Dominic Jones]

Thanks David!

You know, and I'm really just thinking about this now, I guess my point of view with the "proxy" vs "online" argument is this: Since Pro-Res and DNxHD (at least, properly MXF-wrappered) can drop into a timeline immediately, and since 1080p in both formats will play back with minimal system impact on the relevant systems, I just don't see any need for an offline copy that's much smaller or lower quality than that.

Given this factor, why not record into a format that you can finish in, but could also conform from. That way you kill two birds with one stone! For those that want and need much lower datarates (for offline for a feature, for instance) and are definitely going to conform, as long as you enable all of the possible variations of datarate across either or both of those two standards then you should keep all users covered, as the datarates get pretty low on the codecs intended for offline usage.

So, my feeling is, as Haakon points out there is a lot of demand for good quality direct-to-edit footage from high-end cameras. That demand gets passed on to us. I'd like to maximise the potential of my camera to make money. If there is a way to make a module to do this (which if you can make an H.264 version the presumption is you can - but bear in mind I am aware that this is a presumption!) then we can have this ability at no loss to those who want only offline files, and it would seem a missed opportunity not to give us that ability - hence, our (well, my at least!) passing this demand we are feeling along to Red.

Whilst I agree there is a market that Epic holds in the high-end cinema world which makes it a very desirable camera for that niche, I don't think that is a valid reason not to maximise it's potential in a far larger market such as broadcast. If it's not possible to make the module, well then of course that is a valid reason not to make it! I'd just like to raise the flag to say that there are a large group of people who are not content with Ki-Pro and similar workarounds and would gladly purchase such a module if it became available, rather than Red being given the (as I see it on the ground here) erroneous belief that it's not required by anyone.

Again, I'm chuckin' them 2 cents around, but it's definitely the feeling that is emanating in broadcast circles here in the UK, and it was always a major stumbling block in getting the R1 on broadcast shows - if the Epic can solve that issue, then it would be a great step forward in real-world saleability of the platform, imho...

Right, I'm done! :)
Dom.

[Andrew Salter]

David Battistella

The only thing that can "help" is a move toward putting the post hardware (RR CARDS) into as many hands as possible at a tempting price point.

I totally agree with David on this point.

How many Scarlets are on order, many thousands l should imagine.

A package deal with the Scarlet or any new RED camera, or just a price drop to around $ 1500, its been out quite a while now,
(rebate for new owns last 3 or 6 months)so its not dropping on too many toes. RED would sell masses and make serious in roads in to the tv market.

It would bring great Kudos to RED, stack high, sell cheap. As a simple cheap post work flow via RR it is the way to go for RED to increase their base against the

Alexa work flow.

Hope Jim and Jarred pick up on this as l feel this is important.

[Joseph Ward]

I dont know if this is possible to explain, let alone be done, but.... What if the proxy modules do everything from live broadcast with different standards like H.264, and capture RAW using the HDRx technology at the same time. Some may do quick ENG broadcast in some standard(H.264 etc.) and be able to save in RAW for later use in EFP/documentaries if they want to have the creative control they are used to by Red. That way you have the uncompromising best of both worlds, if you need it camera. That might add another acronym to DSMC or at least reinforce it.

[Mark Pugh]

As soon as playback is enabled in the Epic, the Ki Pro Mini and the PIX 240 should be able to record, triggerd by the PLAY signal in the HD-SDI. Or so it's been promised, and I hope it holds true.
It won't be the perfect proxy module, but close enough for me. (Providing that I can get a 16:9 non-letterboxed output from the Epic).

[Martin Weiss]

The proxy module turned corners a bit... a few technology leaps have happened over the last 3 months that warranted a design change.. for the better.

Any chance for an update? With a semi-live picture beamed to an iPad, i feel that I could get some journalists to start appreciating the Epic/Scarlet for acquisition in news - at the same time having the option of getting raw material for archival purposes.