Shooting Extreme Close-ups in 3D

[Ben Jones]

I've just signed up for these forums in hopes that I might gain a little more information on 3D filming. I apologize in advance if anything is a re-post, but I couldn't find much of what I was looking for in other threads.

I'm an intern working on a project that is going to be shot in 3D, and everyone else on the project is very unfamiliar with the technology. While we have the basics figured out, we are struggling with one shot: an extreme close-up of two insects on a leaf. It would be part of a shot in which we tracked into the close up. We realize that a beam splitter rig is what we need, but in terms of the close-up, how can we prevent any jitters? We're afraid that even a slight breeze will cause the camera to shake when at such a close distance.

The second problem we've run into is the issue of lens choices. In going with a master diopter I'm afraid that it's shallow depth of field would clash with the 3D effect. What are some lens choices for he type of shot we are trying to achieve?

If someone could take the time to explain this in layman's terms, or point me in the right direction, it would be greatly appreciated. And again, I apologize for any re-posts, I'm new to this forum.

[KETCH ROSSi]

Ben, first, welcome to REDUSER!!

I also tend to love the Master Diopters, and have used them often, as well as I use other Close Ups lenses in Still Photography.

When there is the need to really get up close you only have really two choices, well actually "3" but if you shoot with a sensor such as in the RED ONE, then the inner cropping vs. full frame sensors will bring already closer.

I usually shoot Micro with the longest Super-telephoto I have, just so not to scare away the little subjects, but in 3D the longest the lens the more Flat and less of a 3D effect you get, unless you have a Parallel, side by side configuration and allow to play with Parallax distance in order to create Giantism.

In the other hand if you get very close with an Image Splitter set up, and using Wide Angle lenses, the 3D effect will be greatly pronounced.

Now as far as Extreme Shallow Depth of Field, this will occur more with the use of the Super-Telephoto, and or a Wide Angle with a Diopter attached, you need to test all your options, as 3D is a very particular animal and gives various looks depending even on the smallest changes.

Your best choice, and need will be, first shoot as closed Iris as you can accordingly, and illuminate that much more, this will ease up the DOF.

[Ben Jones]

Hey Ketch,

Thanks so much for the reply, it cleared a few things up. I'm a little worried about diopters though, will they be as sharp as a macro lens? We only have a beam splitter system to work with so maybe wide angle lenses are a good option. While the 3D effect would be great with wide angle, would we be able to get very close to the action?

Also, as much as I would love to use telephoto, that only works with a parallel system, correct? Or is it possible to use telephoto lenses with a beam splitter system? That would probably be the best of both worlds, but it seems like conflicting technology.

[KETCH ROSSi]

Most welcome Ben,

Arri/Zeiss Master Diopters are simply exceptionally good, so no worries there, just must keep in consideration the fact that this will give a stronger blur to the images in the BG accordingly to the Diopter used.

Getting close to the action with 3D is different as it is just about everything else from 2D, you can get close, and very close that is, but if you use a Image Splitter with wide angle lenses, then you need to get really close, and this can make the 3D effect some what exaggerated, similarly to what Cameron has done in Avatar when Sam Worthington ... Jake Sully, was video/recording him self, as you see there his face is very rounded and the 3D effect is some what exaggerated by the use of extreme close up with wide angle.

For action scenes, you have either a Shoulder mount 3D rig, and or a fast dolly, and or off course Steady cam mounted 3D rig.

I believe that anything can be done, but you have to try out the system in order to see if the look is what you are looking for, Telephotos in general are for Side by Side, Parallel 3D rig, here you can use extremely long focal and adjust accordingly, depending on what distance you are filming at form your subject, and what the intended look is, Super telephotos, can be use ad example to shoot mountain ranges, and you can truly exaggerate the distance of parallel placement by FEETS, not Inches.

I for one, believe little of what some one says, you can't do this or that, I try it for my self before discarding, and so far thru my tests, research, and talks with industry pro's they all agree with me, innovation comes form those that push the envelope and tests out new technics to get what they want, so before going out and shoot, you might want to try and do as much research and testing accordingly.

Some people continue to say that any one can make 3D, and they are far from been right, the thru fact is that any one can make BAD 3D, but those that can make GOOD 3D are very few, and I hope that you do your home work first and not let any one discourage you to test any technique you might think could work, but 3D is very complicated and complex, it gets easy only by the use of the best technology and Crew.

[Leonard Coster]

Hi Ben,

I've had some experience shooting macro and close up in 3D.
As Ketch says there are no hard rules and you need to find what will work. Some on-set monitoring will help you there if you can arrange it - even red/cyan anaglyph will give you an idea if its working or not.

1) Be careful of really long focal lengths in mirror rigs unless you have REALLY good glass. The reflected image will begin to distort as the area of mirror that you are actually using becomes smaller and smaller as you go to longer focal lengths (and/or crop the sensor as well).
Stopping down will greatly improve this but you may need a 10k on your bug !

You don't get this problem with parallel but then your IOD will be way big.... might be ok - ask the maths!

2) Whatever you do obey the divergence limits. Background and overall - even if your background is out of focus. Get a calculator or tables - don't break it!
Up to that point use as much IOD to get as much 3D depth as suits the programme and the cut.

I'll run the numbers for you on this shot if you ping me the numbers.
Closest object (the bug? a leaf?), Furthest object (background), focal length, sensor size (if you're cropping tell me!)

(or you can buy IOD calc for you iPhone - shameless plug here :-)

Cheers,

Leonard.

[Dan Hudgins]

If you have to get very close to the subject in 3D you can use two cameras with two 90 degree "endoscope" or snorkel lenses with small objectives.

If you use a small beam splitter along with the endoscope lenses you can get even more close, since the ends of the two endoscope can part way "overlap" do to the splitter.

Likewise with two cameras and two microscope objectives through a very small beam splitter. A microscope objective can through an image to cover the RED ONE sensor if you use enough extension tubes on each camera, and have enough light on the subject. The tubes would be about 400-600mm and the slide end goes to the subject.

You can also mount two small lenses in a single PL adapter and shoot two side by side images on the sensor at the same time at 2K, using the 4.5K mode, if you put a rack and pinion on that you can dolly in and follow focus right up to an inch or so from the lens mount front.

These let you get closer to the subject, if you use a large mirror rig the focal length of the lenses on the cameras would be longer so the 3D effect may not feel as much like the subject is "enlarged" before you when viewed.

[Ben Jones]

Hey guys,

You've all been very helpful about this. To be honest, I'm an intern working on this 3D project, and my knowledge pales in comparison to all of you, and so far you've done a good job of explaining things. My main issue here lies within trying to find other films or projects that have tried to shoot macro stereoscopic shots. I'm sure it has been done, Bugs! 3D is one, but I'm having difficulty finding others. Do you guys have any ideas? Our shoot isn't too far away, and we have some ideas on where we'd like to go with it, but as you all mentioned, 3D is a whole new realm that requires some creative filming techniques. I'm trying to explore all of our possible options. Are there any specific films or companies that have shot 3D in macro, or any leads that you might be able to provide on that front?

Thanks, and hopefully this isn't too dumbed down of a topic for all of you.

Ben

[Ben Jones]

PS: Leonard I will definitely take a look at the IOD calc, even if I don't fully understand it, haha.

[icester]

I've just signed up for these forums in hopes that I might gain a little more information on 3D filming. I apologize in advance if anything is a re-post, but I couldn't find much of what I was looking for in other threads.

I'm an intern working on a project that is going to be shot in 3D, and everyone else on the project is very unfamiliar with the technology. While we have the basics figured out, we are struggling with one shot: an extreme close-up of two insects on a leaf. It would be part of a shot in which we tracked into the close up. We realize that a beam splitter rig is what we need, but in terms of the close-up, how can we prevent any jitters? We're afraid that even a slight breeze will cause the camera to shake when at such a close distance.

The second problem we've run into is the issue of lens choices. In going with a master diopter I'm afraid that it's shallow depth of field would clash with the 3D effect. What are some lens choices for he type of shot we are trying to achieve?

If someone could take the time to explain this in layman's terms, or point me in the right direction, it would be greatly appreciated. And again, I apologize for any re-posts, I'm new to this forum.

Here is my advice:

Camera
Use the fastest shutter and the highest aperture on a samall diameter lens
to get sharp frames.
To compensate for low exposure you need very strong light with IR removed so you do not damage the insects. Also the light need to be soft or you get unwanted specular effects in the beam splitter.

3D rig
the lens need to have from 30 to 55 deg horizontal view angle
because that's how the target viewers like to watch 3D content.
If you use narrower angle the viewers will see distorted perspective or streched depth.

Post edit
in post edit you remove the jitter using a regular plug-in that tracks stationary object on the leaf and that will result in some cropping so plan to use full frame mode when shooting.

Mathew Orman

For state of the art stereoscopic vision systems with: eyestrain free, distortion free and realistic immersion stereoscopic experience contact me
at:
http://www.tyrell-innovations-usa.com/

[Ben Jones]

If you have to get very close to the subject in 3D you can use two cameras with two 90 degree "endoscope" or snorkel lenses with small objectives.

If you use a small beam splitter along with the endoscope lenses you can get even more close, since the ends of the two endoscope can part way "overlap" do to the splitter.

Hey Dan,

Thanks for the reply, I'm not quite sure how these snorkel lenses would work with a beam splitter. Do you know of any specific designs that have used this system, and who I might be able to contact to look at them? Even better would be finding someone who actually builds the rigs, and can help us customize one. It seems like every 3D rig has been made to the specifics of certain productions.

Thanks,
Ben