Thread: DOF & beauty

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  1. #91  
    Senior Member Roberto Lequeux's Avatar
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    Wow, lots of lovely paintings. Interesting, however, I see no actual bokeh. Perhaps lower contrast in color and tonality, a bit less definition in the edges, or a creative "debeautifying" of the elements as they get deeper in the frame in La Gioconda (If I may be so bold as to try to rationalize any aspect of these paintings).

    I think that David is right on that lack of DoF in paintings might be due to how incredibly hard it must be to achieve realistic bokeh. Even with some current sort of spray painting tool, it would be very hard. Could you imagine having to paint a daisy with just enough definition to recognize it? Or a little bit more out of focus so that all you can tell it is a white flower?

    Looking at Karl Connolly's "Depth of Field" I see the attempt at blurring the soil, yet no attempt at blurring the sky and the ground together with a technically incorrect horizon line which would be -exponentially- harder. It is a good idea to make your subject that which he chose.

    I bet something with more detail has been done before, probably by someone in the times when painting was "cutting edge" back then people put so much more emphasis onto the art, so the rewards were higher as well. However, I also bet people might have thought they were "bad paintings", or a cheap attempt by the artist to work less or something... It might have been hard to convince the guy "paying your bills" that you really should devote the amount of time it might take to master the technique when he would have had a hard time convincing his guests that it was in fact a work of art and not a mistake.

    You would also have to paint based on your peripheral by focusing on a guide if you wanted repeatable bokeh. That would be a pain. Or maybe by focusing on a thin strand of cloth.

    I would love to see more paintings with shallow DoF. Interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Hadfield View Post
    And I wish styles were more motivated by context, rather than just what's currently popular.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Kraemer View Post
    I agree, but this is why some films really stand out, and they are usually created by auteurs who hold a complete command of the whole film. Their visual style works hand and glove with the narrative, and often seems inventive as a result.
    I wish more people realized the importance of having an auteur. So many shows are "mass produced". One can be collaborative regardless of how well visualized, heard(!), or psychoanalyzed your concept may be. If you truly grasp something to such degree, then suggestions can ONLY help. One with a clear vision cannot be confused, swayed, or lead astray. Instead they can only be illuminated by someone else's creative contribution or interpretation. What more could one with such devotion to a piece of art want, than help making it better! Unless of course the whole thing were purely an ego exercise and didn't have a higher purpose guiding the auteur.

    David, after seeing your last post I would mention that it is interesting how there isn't even the slight DoF achievable by our eyes when focusing on a very close object with far deeper background. This is the omission I find interesting. Even in Karl Connolly's "Depth of Field" the horizon clearly should be far more out of focus to be technically correct. Though the closer soil just behind the rock probably shouldn't... unless the artist "cropped into his eyesight" for interpretation -and decided not to attempt the horizon line.
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  2. #92  
    Here's another famous painting staged in deep focus:


    And another:
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  3. #93  
    Senior Member Jerrod Cordell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Mullen ASC View Post
    Here I used a split-diopter filter:
    You definitely pulled off this shot with the split-diopter filter.

    There have been quite a few shots I've seen in movies where they used that filter and it just looks completely unnatural. Like there's a perfect line between what's blurry and what's not. This shot actually simply looks like both subjects are in focus which is exactly what you were going for.
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  4. #94  
    An artist would not paint a shallow DOF as it does not exist in the human eye.
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  5. #95  
    Moderator Tom Lowe's Avatar
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    I don't have my copy of EYES WIDE SHUT, but I seem to recall Kubrick using a good number of really beautiful deep-focus shots, even in situations that appeared to be shot in low light.



    I really need to get a 1080p copy of Eyes Wide Shut and watch it again. The film is very underrated, IMO.
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  6. #96  
    Senior Member Sanjin Jukic's Avatar
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    Tom L,

    get it on BR and it's a great movie.

    Also forget the critics...
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    Dynamic range is, after all, the measurement between well saturation (photosite blowout) and noise floor.
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  7. #97  
    Senior Member XiaoSu Han's Avatar
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    Would it be possible that because the eye is as sensitive as it is, it would not let the iris open far enough to create out of focus backgrounds when we look at something in "close focus"?

    Say the eye has an iso value of 160000, it would then in bright light have a f-stop of around 128 anyways, and in low light maybe become something around 5.6? Would it be possible that in very low light there could be bokeh managable with our eyes?

    What I've tried several times though and has worked was when I took my glasses off (I've got quite a strong subscription) everything is bokeh only (haha). But if I focus on something that I still CAN see in focus, the background goes out of focus (because my eyes can't get it in focus anymore?) and I perceive bokeh. With street lights at night I even get those roundy shapes (and not vertical ones, so no anamorphic eyes, bummer!).

    It's not natural, but it's a way to create bokeh with my eyes, try it yourself! (if your eyes are broken) :)
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  8. #98  
    Senior Member Pietro Impagliazzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom L View Post
    The film is very underrated, IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjin Jukic View Post
    Tom L,

    get it on BR and it's a great movie.

    Also forget the critics...
    IMO, it's Kubrick's best film. The tension build-up... Genious!

    Quote Originally Posted by paulherrin View Post

    followed by a prompt and expected rack focus.
    LOL, loved the rack focus joke. Rack focus is definitely lazier than shallow DOF.

    However we gotta notice that painters have total control of what they leave in or out of the background, control we should have as filmmakers too.
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  9. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by paulherrin View Post
    While they show some basic atmospheric perspective, I don't think you could equate it to the shallowness we're seeing these days - even in the example that's entitled "Depth of Field." ...sorry to obliterate the art... "everyone's doing it"[/I]
    It might not be to the extent or extreme of your "obliterated" examples. The point wasn't to equate what painters have traditionally done against what is a current trend in cinematography. The point is, call it what you will (atmospheric perspective) painters have been using depth control for a long time. It may not look the same as depth of field in cinematography, but it doesn't mean it doesn't have a similar effect.

    It seems like it's a matter of scale and scope when you compare the two. The scale of detail is so much greater with photography that to obscure some detail can be more desirable in composition, but in painting where the level of detail is not nearly the same (not photo real, although some painting approaches it) ascetically you need less compressed depth to render a similarly balanced composition.

    Painting is intended to be looked at, studied, over and over, for varying durations. A great painting has things in it that you might not notice until you have viewed it 20 times or more. You can say this about films too, but a frame of film goes by in 1/24 of a second. You have less time to hone in on what the artist want's you to take away. This might be why motion shots that have extremely deep depth of field trigger more of an unsettling response in the viewer.
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  10. #100  
    Senior Member Andrew Rieger's Avatar
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    speaking of paintings that approach photo detail, all of these are paintings, not photographs. Fools almost everyone.

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