High quality but economical gyrostabilized gimbal for Epic/Scarlet

[Alex Fostvedt]

Just had the opportunity to use the Filmo Technic Mini Flight Head on a recent job. This is the head to be measured against. Small, light, and does a great job of stabilizing. Here are some pics...
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[Alan Skinner]

Pics?

[bennyblanco]

Here r two different gyro stabilized heads that I have worked with a lot. I've used both heads on the water in power boats and sail boats.

The Perfect Horizon- http://motionpicturemarine.com/
a great product, although sometimes a little tempermental, after two monthes of twelve hour shooting days at see it would quit on us once in a while. One plus is that it operates silently so its good for sync work.

The Mako Head- http://www.makohead.com/
A tank this thing works always. But its big, heavy, and makes a high pitched buzzing whine. It is tough though. Also works under slung on a crane.

[Chris Hoffmann]

For some time I've been processing on the technical details of a high quality gyrostabilized gimbal for Epic and Scarlet.

We all know that high quality gimbals are very expensive. I've learnt that they start from $150K - $250K, and one easily makes an assumption that the high cost is somehow forced on us by the nature. And yes, scientifically we know that there is no way to recognize gravity from other mechanical forces/accelerations acting on a moving object, so proper stabilization requires highly skillful engineering. The other side of the coin is, take a look at a $150K gimbal and compare it to a car which costs $150K --what is your conclusion on that?

Once I've put my mind on this I've become convinced that technically it is possible build a first class fully gyrostabilized gimbal for Epic/Scarlet with a reasonable cost. I have been developing high accuracy navigation systems etc. and have quite a lot of experience in developing challenging engineering products and thus feel not standing steadily 20cm above the ground level. Furthermore, I'm talking about using the gimbal when shooting from car, boat/ship, snow mobile, RC helicopters etc., but not about airplanes or helicopters as that's an regulated area.

If you've read this post up to this point and you are still interested in the subject, let me point one interesting detail making the challenge bit easier; Designing a gimbal to Epic or Scarlet is easier than designing a gimbal to Red One. For, with Epic one needs to stabilize only the brain and lens and consequently in both cases there is less mass to stabilize than that of Red One. (A word of warning; Still one should not expect the Epic brain will weigh almost nothing. Second, it is not yet clear how long cable one may attach between the brain and the rest of the camera.) Less mass imply smaller and cheaper motors, and the cost reduces much faster than linearly with respect to the mass.

Basically I'm just interested in getting a proper gimbal, but buying the existing products are not economically justified. Second, have neither indefinitely time to design a gimbal. For this reason I decided to make an attempt to find out how many other people are interested in such kind of gimbals and who could contribute something if such a system is developed. You know, this post is about probing whether a kind of Linux approach could work out. That is, eventually if everything worked out we posted on RedUserNet drawings, list of components, software etc. enabling anybody who knows how to use a screwdriver to construct a gimbal or some 3rd party takes over and finds the outcome as a business opportunity.

So, if you are still reading could you reply if you have an interest in a reasonable cost gimbal, and second, if you could tell whether you would be willing and able to contribute something on designing such a gimbal. If yes, to get an idea of feedback, could you rate yourself exploiting the following guidelines:

1) High experienced user: You are able to tell where the technical challenges lie in practice. Such as, you are able to tell which axis pan,tilt or roll is most critical one to stabilize.

2) Skillfull designer in engineering: You know say what is a PID-controller, what the moment of inertia is, or you know why modelling of the mechanics of the gimbal is important.

3) Electronics/electrical engineer: Your are able to distinct between embedded system, induction machine and stepper motor, and you know how motors are driven.

Have no idea whether this attempt will crash immediately or whether it will lead somewhere, but at least there's an attempt. Finally, if you hesitate to post in public, send me a pm. Those filled with pessimism, could you please let others to have a rational discussion. Thanks

__________________________________________________ _____
We have been working closely with gyro stabilization for three years. See our web site at www.rynomotors.com . I designed and hand built each prototype. I have been a mechanical engineer for twenty five years. See my web site at www.christopherhoffmann.wordpress.com . I'd be glad to open a dialog on how best to serve your needs.

Sincerely,

Chris Hoffmann
chris@rynomotors.com

[Torrey Loomis]

Bump--would love to see an update to this thread. I have a client who needs to mount a simple unit to his Aircam.

Torrey
-----------------------------------------------
Torrey Loomis
President & CEO - Silverado Systems, Inc.
(916) 760-0032 • FAX (916) 404-5258
torrey@silverado.cc
Web http://www.Silverado.cc
Blog http://silveradosys.blogspot.com
Twitter http://www.twitter.com/silveradosys

Build your own RED Rocket system: http://bit.ly/7F4QA1

[Lauri Kettunen]

Now that I've processed more than a year on this gimbal, eventually got good ideas how to design and construct such a gimbal system in a completely new way. All this time I've been after a simple and low cost design, and finally might have found it.

People have sent me messages and asked all sort of things, such as what kind of motors should be uses etc. If things are as I now surmise all this can be avoided. At least, that's what I'm after as such things only make the gimbal construction rather complex and heavy. But we'll see. No promises from my side, but might have found the way to overcome the challenges. In addition, will make a full prototype only for Epic and Scarlet once they arrive as they are much lighter than R1. To give a hint of what's going on, have a 25 year experience in electromagnetic design on the highest possible level ...

[constantine Tirintzis]

Hello there. I have also worked out a very nice gyro module gimbal that you can mount a mini 2 axis head underslung only and it works very well in theory.
My design uses just one Kenyon KS4 gyro for this , together with a motion control module and stepper motors. Before someone says that a kenyon KS4 isnt enough to stabilize, I will say that the Kenyon isnt used the way that you think.
Also you will have the option of recording all movements of the gimbal and pan tilt head data and if one wants use it on CGI.

The system though isnt exactly very cheap , BUT it can be 1/10 of the price of any equivalent system. There are also vibration isolation for the head.

Pm me for information so we can make this real.

Or I can work together with a 3rd party on this idea.

EDIT. The system uses an 8 axis motion controller and software for 8 axis, joystick or wheel control, or even pan bar if required for the control of the head, and also recording reall time motion both at gimbal and head.
Stepper gear motors for simplicity and reliability for all axis.
Not exactly a small unit BUT VERY effective with big accuracy and no DRIFT.

Either way its a very good solution, for aerial and vehicle shooting.

and not only for light cams.

Thank you.

[Lauri Kettunen]

Constantine, you seem to have a different kind of gimbal in mine. I'm thinking of something like this one

http://www.definitionmagazine.com/jo...tv-gimbal.html

that you can put on a car, boat, skido, balloon, helicopter (guess requires a license) and so on without any mechanical gyros such as the Kenyon ones. The goal is to come up with a design that is as simple as ever possible to keep the cost low.

[constantine Tirintzis]

Lauri hello. good to talk to you.
What you are showing me is the Gyron .
Gyron has various gimbals and its one of the most effective in the industry.
I my self had the chance to play with one on the 2004 Olympics in Athens.
They had it mounted on boats and helicopters many of them.
These gimbals are working with sensors and motors and they also have an antivibration mount. Of what I have read you want to make something with out sensors and motors which I really find hard to think off , and I had the feeling you were going for something different.
Gyron is not a light weight system and in some cases it has intergraded cameras in it.
In fact it can be quite heavy less than space cam but still very heavy indeed
My gimbal is nothing like this in philosophy .
My gyro gimbal works with out sensors .
I would rather talk privet about this if you like so you can discuss this with me and see what I mean. I also have the original idea of the motion control intergration to the system so the motion data of the gimbal and remote head can be recorded reall time on shooting and then can be played back on a studio with the exact rig mounted on a steady base, (well the head only really) and add cgi effects and that maybe is of interest and usefull in some cases, plus the fact that you also have a moco head.
Are you getting where Iam going?
Iam interested in working together or sharing this project .
I also can produce CNC machined parts using my rigs manufacturer with great quality.
Interested?
EDIT The mini filmotecknic head works same way as the bigger heads , and I have seen footage with horizon errors nmounted on vehicles so its not exactly great stabilizing, it works quite well, but nothing like the gyron.
I believe I can achieeve much better results.

MORE EDIT. the cost is very relative to the results.
Getting sensors that work and low or non backlash motors for this can be expensive as well.

[constantine Tirintzis]

Oh and I forgot to say, inter graded follow focus , zoom and iris control for any lens fully recordable and repeatable , but wired.