Underwater Bubble Blowers User Group Thread NEW

[Frazier Nivens]

I hate to disagree with my friend Frazier (I guess I'm just disagreeable today ;-) ) but I don't think the 15mm on epic (75degree FOV) "would be fine" in very clear water - it would be just okay. IIRC Frazier, you were saying just the other day that the lens you had on - with a 95 degree FOV shooting 5K - wasn't as wide as you would like since you are used to shooting with camcorders with well over 100 degree FOV.

Here's the bottom line for me - it is often hard to evaluate things like this without seeing direct comparison because at first it is going to look good - you just don't realize it could be even better if you don't have something to directly compare it to. This is the scenario I see happening - you're going to shoot 75 degree FOV with the Nikonos 15 on Epic (or god forbid on Scarlet which will be worse at 4K only 63 degree FOV) and the dive master will be shooting with his Sony camcorder with a super wide lens behind a dome port, and the producer will be watching both on playback and wondering why the sony "looks so much better" - because he got a lot closer and cut down the amount of water between camera and subject and got much better color saturation and clarity. They probably aren't going to notice the extra sharpness in the corners of the Nikonos shots - but they will notice the much nicer overall image. In short, until we get a full frame (24x36mm) sensor to match the film format the Nikonos 15mm was designed for I just don't see the point, which is why we haven't implemented it yet even though we discussed using the Nikonos lenses on RED in this forum years ago.

So Michael, are you saying that 75 degree angle for some filming is not fine? For some things it could very well be. I would never shoot UW with a 75 degree FOV lens unless it was something specific which in certain conditions you can and will get a "fine" image. Is that good enough, for certain things, yes.

If you were close enough, the water was clear and it was the right subject the lens could do a good job. If I were shooting close shots of corals, fish in clear water it might be fine, would love to try it out and shoot it side by side in our water down here in good and poor visibility. This would tell the down and dirty of how good it really is.

But we do need the widest angle for UW for almost everything except close up work. My preference is 120 degrees which gives us the chance to get closer to our subject underwater and get sharper, more color saturated imaging.

Shooting the 510 ft. Spiegel Grove shipwreck next week and I'm using the widest angle lens I can put on EPIC. Will let you know how it goes. Maybe post some shots, want to test out the Sigma 8/15mm lens. Might be good for that. We will see.

I'm still mad that it's not me getting to film the NEEMO project at Aquarius, was hard passing that one up. But at least I'll get to see the footage. Enjoy my friend.

Come by after you are done, I'd be happy to view the footage with you here. I so wanted to do that one. How cool that will be.

Best,
Frazier

[Frazier Nivens]

Pawel,

I would love to see how well the lens does in good and poor conditions, it would be great to see how nice and clean the imaging is at 75 degrees vs anything over 100 degrees. There will be a difference in my opinion, yes and the wider lens will look better.

Your housing and design looks very well made, congratulations and the best to you in your business. Its so small and compact, gotta love that.

If you are ever down this way, I'd be happy to say hello and take you diving here in the Keys. Great water most of the time vis wise, different marine life from your neck of the woods but some nice diving and things to shoot UW.

Best,
Frazier

[Mark_Thorpe]

Why would you like to see it? You seem to have formulated your opinion without it.



Michael, as you seem to reapeat yourself like a broken record, I'd like to clarify that on balance neither Bob nor I find the 75 degrees (or 82 degrees on the upcoming Dragon sensor) of the Nikonos 15mm limiting considering simply unmatched overall flexibility and quality that the Nikonos system provides. The ability to use extension tubes, the range of lenses and the incredible speed with which you can change them in the field means that DeepX offers a unique ability to capture the action from all the angles and with the highest optical quality possible.

Overall (in case you missed it the forest for the trees) Bob thought that DeepX is one of the most compelling housings for the Epic currently available and, in fact, he would like to use it on his next feature. It is the highest praise I have received and I'm delighted by hearing this from Bob as he essentially validated what I considered the best housing for my own work.

He didn't mention Aquavideo for some reason.

So, maybe you could just serch for problems in your own backyard before you start bagging competitive offerings as it just sounds like sour grapes to me.

As a manufacturer I would suggest you learn to roll with the punches. You're gonna be getting a whole mixed bag of responses on the aesthetics and ergonomics of your product from here on in. If you react in a similar way to anyone who suggests or outlines negative points on your product then you're going to start burning a number of bridges. You never know in this industry where relationships go so better to adapt that attitude to one of professional acceptance and neutrality. Learn from the points people raise and try to better them with future products.

Just my 2c

[Johnny Friday]

Mr. Thorpe---hey, you are in the manufacturing realm---yes, now i recall. Send me something to rip apart, break and criticize the hell out of....I'll do that one for YOU sir, on the house!

[Michael Hastings]

Why would you like to see it? You seem to have formulated your opinion without it.



Michael, as you seem to reapeat yourself like a broken record, I'd like to clarify that on balance neither Bob nor I find the 75 degrees (or 82 degrees on the upcoming Dragon sensor) of the Nikonos 15mm limiting considering simply unmatched overall flexibility and quality that the Nikonos system provides. The ability to use extension tubes, the range of lenses and the incredible speed with which you can change them in the field means that DeepX offers a unique ability to capture the action from all the angles and with the highest optical quality possible.

Overall (in case you missed it the forest for the trees) Bob thought that DeepX is one of the most compelling housings for the Epic currently available and, in fact, he would like to use it on his next feature. It is the highest praise I have received and I'm delighted by hearing this from Bob as he essentially validated what I considered the best housing for my own work.

He didn't mention Aquavideo for some reason.

So, maybe you could just serch for problems in your own backyard before you start bagging competitive offerings as it just sounds like sour grapes to me.

I repeat myself because you keep putting this out there about the 15mm not being limiting at 75 degrees (or 63 at 4K on epic or scarlet) when virtually no one with any experience agrees with you - including apparently Bob Cranston since he said: "The Nikon 15mm lens looked good, but was not wide enough for my liking." - direct quote. And in fairness, you should make it clear that anyone shooting a Scarlet, which is only 4K, or Epic 4K or 4KHD - which is very common even with Epics for work flow reasons - will be stuck in the 60 degree range - while housed camera users have numerous choices for extreme wide angle lenses that were designed specifically for the smaller 4K sensor format size.

Most of the other stuff you mention doesn't seem to be much advantage -

Extension tubes - it's no different using them with a housed camera, although unlike with your Nikonos setup you don't really need them - we have lots of excellent choices for macro/closeup that don't need extensions and provide remote and/or autofocus if you want it - how do you do that with DeepX?

Range of lenses? It is very limited in Nikonos mount, much more and better choices in any of the canon, nikon, PL, leica, etc mounts. And again, we have the option of electronic control.

Speed of lens change? It takes about 5 seconds to take the front plate off of our housing and after that it doesn't take any longer to switch lenses than it does on the Nikonos mount - maybe less - and about 5-10 seconds to put the front plate back on so it doesn't seem that significant.

Pawel: Your DeepX is a cool housing and I wouldn't mind shooting it on my next feature - I'm sure there are a couple shots that would benefit from a slightly smaller housing, but if it were a movie with a lot of underwater I doubt if it would be the main choice. I still like driving my old '96 BMW Z3 - it's fun, but unless I need to take sharp turns at 90 MPH, it's not really practical - the X3 performs just as well and is much more versatile.

Broken record, yes - as long as you keep promoting that the Nikonos 15 on Epic/Scarlet is wide enough to be the ideal - which flies in the face of everything the rest of the world knows about underwater photography (and particularly motion photography where wider FOV also minimizes the effect of camera shake) with no other real option for wider except an off-brand fisheye - then I'm going to try to offset that by at least mentioning over and over the offsetting truth. It's not sour grapes, it is setting the record straight.

[Ross Isaacs]

Finally after 2 years of development I am the proud owner of Deep Atom. Congratulations to John Ellerbrock and his team for this marvel of engineering.

[Joe Shemesh]

Finally after 2 years of development I am the proud owner of Deep Atom. Congratulations to John Ellerbrock and his team for this marvel of engineering.

Huge congratulations Ross!!!

best
joe

[Pawel Achtel]

I repeat myself because you keep putting this out there about the 15mm not being limiting at 75 degrees (or 63 at 4K on epic or scarlet) when virtually no one with any experience agrees with you - including apparently Bob Cranston since he said: "The Nikon 15mm lens looked good, but was not wide enough for my liking." - direct quote. And in fairness, you should make it clear that anyone shooting a Scarlet, which is only 4K, or Epic 4K or 4KHD - which is very common even with Epics for work flow reasons - will be stuck in the 60 degree range - while housed camera users have numerous choices for extreme wide angle lenses that were designed specifically for the smaller 4K sensor format size.

Most of the other stuff you mention doesn't seem to be much advantage -

....

certainly not for you...after all you are a competitor

[Johnny Friday]

Ross, how long it take you to do a complete cleaning on that rig ?

[Mark_Thorpe]

Mr. Thorpe---hey, you are in the manufacturing realm---yes, now i recall. Send me something to rip apart, break and criticize the hell out of....I'll do that one for YOU sir, on the house!

When 'stuff' is ready you're first on the list dude, well you and a certain Ninja currently in the loop. We're making something that fills a gap in the market, not a direct threat to anyone here but something that is needed on a smaller scale. Not sure of a timeframe yet so not gonna put any suggestions out there yet. Very early days.

Cheers bud,
M