Thread: Question concerning K resolution and 35mm film

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  1. #11  
    Member Reinhold R.'s Avatar
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    There's a great article from ARRI that covers most of the basics about DI and resolution of film stock.

    http://www.arri.de/camera/tutorials/...e_imaging.html

    Check out the PDF at the bottom of the page.

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  2. #12  
    Senior Member Radoslav Karapetkov's Avatar
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    A slight off-topic... (but still, connected to the topic of perceived resolution).

    How would you comment what James Cameron said about 2K and 4K?

    He said that 2K shot and projected at 48 fps looks as sharp as 4K shot and projected at 24 fps.
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  3. #13 Max 
    Senior Member Dan Hudgins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Lokegaard View Post
    Great, thanks.
    Do you know what the upper limit for 15 perf. 65mm film, IMAX, is? And 5 perf. 65mm? What is the highest K scan available today?
    You can work out the resolution required for film by the square mm, you can look at some Super16 scans I did, they were not noise filtered, so you can see what film looks like in a RAW scan,

    http://reduser.net/forum/showthread....086#post401086

    Note: links may not work because of the crash of reduser, let me know and I might be able to fix it etc.

    The max file size for JPG files was reduced (?) to 97.7KB it seems, which it too low for viewing the images, so you can email me if you want to look at them and I can send them to you. Not even 1MB for a 1K image is WTF?

    The focus is a bit off on those, but you can see the grain issues. The better you get the color separation the more you can see the grain in color film. If those were for use I would stop the lens down to soften the grain, the printing Nikkor can resolve the grain quite sharp, the lens I used was the one used for JFK to blow up the 8mm Zapruder film (so we were told), if you remember how well the grain was resolved in that.

    Our scanner used Oxberry parts. So if you make one like it for IMAX you can use a 4x5 digital back as the camera, or a 2 1/4 camera back and get more resolution, if you make several scans of each frame and fuse them, you can get smoother tonal ranges. My system has such a fuse option that works with color seperation exposures. You should not use the Bayer filter for color scans as the results are not as good as using colored LED or seperation filters like Wratten 98, 99, and 70 along with 2E and IR cut.

    Here is a link to high resolution backs,

    http://www.photographyreview.com/cat...S_4287crx.aspx

    http://www.photographyreview.com/cat...3_4287crx.aspx

    You also need a VERY good lens to get the job done...

    You can also use a "line scan" camera like used in a flat bed scanner, some of those are very high resolution, you just use the right lens to focus on the moving line array sensor, and make several passes to get the colors, IR scan for dust removal, and extra scans for tonal range and noise fusing.
    Dan Hudgins is developing "Freeish" 6K+ NLE/CC/DI/MIX File based Editing for uncompressed DI, multitrack sound mixing, integrated color correction, DIY Movie film scanning, and DIY Movie filmrecorder software for Digital Cinema. RED (tm) footage can be edited 6K, 5K, 4.5K, 4K, 3K, 2K, or 1080p etc. see http://www.DANCAD3D.com/S0620200.HTM (sm) for workflow steps.
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  4. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by karapetkov View Post
    A slight off-topic... (but still, connected to the topic of perceived resolution).

    How would you comment what James Cameron said about 2K and 4K?

    He said that 2K shot and projected at 48 fps looks as sharp as 4K shot and projected at 24 fps.
    Certainly is possible for scenes with movement, not for static shots. Though of course, you then get into the debate as to whether 48 fps motion looks "video-ish" or not for some viewers.

    As for IMAX, as a frame of reference, "Dark Knight" scanned their IMAX footage for the 35mm anamorphic release version and for IMAX visual effects at 8K. Now the Cinefex article on the movie said that they felt at IMAX was actually 15K but that wasn't practical.

    You could think of it this way, if a 24mm wide piece of film (Super-35) needs to be scanned at 4K, then since a 70mm wide piece of film (IMAX) is 3X wider, it should be scanned at 12K.

    I think they used a modified 4K Northlight scanner for "The Dark Knight", which probably means some sort of half-pixel offset dual-scan to build an 8K frame.
    David Mullen, ASC
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  5. #15  
    You people are great for the scope of your posts.
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  6. #16  
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    Dan,

    All of your image links on the post linked to are indeed broken it seems.
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  7. #17 Fixed link, email for images? 
    Senior Member Dan Hudgins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Payne View Post
    Dan,

    All of your image links on the post linked to are indeed broken it seems.
    I fixed the link buy looking in my post log and using google to find the post date, but I could not repost the JPG images since the image size is now (reduced?) to 97.7KB each?

    It would seem the limit should be more like 1MB for a 1K image to be viewed for critical review of image quality, would it not?

    If you want to see the scans you can email me and I can email them to you, they are about 300KB each.
    Dan Hudgins is developing "Freeish" 6K+ NLE/CC/DI/MIX File based Editing for uncompressed DI, multitrack sound mixing, integrated color correction, DIY Movie film scanning, and DIY Movie filmrecorder software for Digital Cinema. RED (tm) footage can be edited 6K, 5K, 4.5K, 4K, 3K, 2K, or 1080p etc. see http://www.DANCAD3D.com/S0620200.HTM (sm) for workflow steps.
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  8. #18  
    Senior Member Evangelos Achillopoulos's Avatar
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    It is interesting to read this study also for that subject...

    http://www.motionfx.gr/Files/35mm_re...on_english.pdf
    Evangelos Achillopoulos
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  9. #19  
    Senior Member Radoslav Karapetkov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Mullen ASC View Post
    Certainly is possible for scenes with movement, not for static shots. Though of course, you then get into the debate as to whether 48 fps motion looks "video-ish" or not for some viewers.

    As for IMAX, as a frame of reference, "Dark Knight" scanned their IMAX footage for the 35mm anamorphic release version and for IMAX visual effects at 8K. Now the Cinefex article on the movie said that they felt at IMAX was actually 15K but that wasn't practical.

    You could think of it this way, if a 24mm wide piece of film (Super-35) needs to be scanned at 4K, then since a 70mm wide piece of film (IMAX) is 3X wider, it should be scanned at 12K.

    I think they used a modified 4K Northlight scanner for "The Dark Knight", which probably means some sort of half-pixel offset dual-scan to build an 8K frame.

    Thank you for the explanation.
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  10. #20 where to scan? 
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    Could anyone advise on a good & reasonably priced facility anywhere in Europe to have 35 mm film scanned to 2K or 4K? I have appr. 1 hour of footage, I'm not really in a hurry. Thanks.
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