Hi,
I am setting up a backup of 8 to 10TB and I need a simple LTO4 solution for Mac.
Ziggy
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01-06-2009, 08:38 AM
Hi,
I am setting up a backup of 8 to 10TB and I need a simple LTO4 solution for Mac.
Ziggy
01-06-2009, 01:25 PM
Here is the one I use with Retrospect v6.0.
http://www.provantage.com/quantum-tc...z~7QUAT08E.htm
Best,
ATF
01-06-2009, 02:07 PM
Id use Bru server to drive the LTO. SCSI is said to be more reliable than FC but I've not had any issues with FC myself. Check the Tollis site to check out any issues. Bru is very fast as a rule.
01-06-2009, 09:33 PM
Hello Ziggy,
In the last 2 months I went through a little ride setting up an LTO 4 backup system on the Mac.
You can check this thread regarding that situation and other people's experience setting up LTO 4 on the Mac.
Thread link:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21284
David is the person that first recommended BRU Server to me and I could not agree with him more. It is very solid. I also have the HP 1760 LTO 4 SAS drive and the LSI 3442E SAS Host Bus Adapter PCI card that allows the drive to be connected to the Mac.
I have since backed up well over 10 TB with this configuration and again, it is VERY solid.
Brian Timmons
britim media
01-07-2009, 07:07 PM
Hi Ziggy there is a wealth of information on these forums concerning the use of an archive system that is natve to MACOSX & Ultrium LTO4 tape drives.Originally Posted by ZiggY
I've done this & have a fully working solution on OSX like a few of us on this forum. it works great!
Simply search the REDUSER forum (and others) using these keywords: lto4 ultrium backup archive.
Heres are some very recent and long (mega) threads with tonnes of useful & quite recent information. Suggest read these and you will likely get the best information in town on your request. Informed posters such as Brian & Jeff & several others have a wealth of experience and to be sure read their entire threads & posts in great detail.
& lots more
- http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21284
- http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17496
- http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11369
- http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=155693
I looked at this for ages before making a large investment & I will summarise and direct you to these equirements:
- cost effectiveness over time for your business needs
- suits your workflow and assimilation with other workflow components
- suits your platform
- some technology future proof (disks dont cut it BTW)
- hardware compatability and platform vendor support
To use a SAS | SCSI direct attach tape device you simply need a SAS or SCSI HBA + an LTO 4 TAPE DRIVE & some OSX based software.
SO having said all this & HAVING a working solution for archive based on MAC OSX alone I would recommend a simple solution of:
- HP LTO4 ULtrium SAS Half Height 1760 or Full Height 1840 tape drive (desktop models)
- ATTOTECH EXPRESS SAS HBA (Rxx or Hxx) works great on OSX and is configurable
- TolisGroups BRU-xE (Producers Edition or LE) for archive sofware
- HP or SONY Ultrium LTO4 Media
HARDWARE SUPPORT OF MAC OSX Peripherals:
HBA (PCIE/PCIX Host Buss adapters) and TAPEDRIVE firmware update configuration is a HUGE issue for MACOSX users because hardware vendors such as LSI LOGIC and QUANTUM (to name a few) DO NOT provide native OSX capbility. Instead you would need to consider a separate machine w/ usually WINDOWS XP or SOlaris or LINUX (depending on the peripheral) to update these devices.
It is possible to do this using a MACPRO but you need BOOTCAMP INTERNAL DISK device & lots of patience to get this done. I have done this should anyone need assistance.
Vendors to avoid for this are: LSI LOGIC & especially QUANTUM. To Quantums credit they do have a very nice tape drive configuration tool for their tape drive (windows XP only ofcourse)!. Runs OK on his MACPRO 8 core in native windows-xp mode.
Quantum (sigh!) is completely clueless about MAC OSX and media production in general - after many fruitless sessions over many months and their internal contacts , I don't believe they even have any OSX MAC PROS machines in their TAPE engineering LAbs, nice if they did. Their support for tape drives is dreadful and as I've stated on many posts they are definately off my shopping list in future. (I have a Quantum HH SAS Ultrium 4 desktop tape drive)
HP SAS Ultrium LTO4 tape drives work best with several HBA's. Some rumours are that HP may even have a native OSX tape drive firmware updater... that would be cool.
SO beware.
SOFTWARE SUPPORT OF MAC OSX Peripherals:
Old timers such as DANTZ/EMC retrospect is the chestnut we all had to use when there was no other choice for OSX. Well there's now quite a few. Today EMC announced RETROSPECT updates @ MACWORLD. I'll wait and see.
Other vendors such as Tolisgroup have a native OSX application (which I am using right at this minute) that controls tape libraries and tape drives. Worth a look and a try out.
There are many others but however many use a LINUX server so for me that is unhelpful. THere is an enterprise archive enabler from SGL called FLASHNET (OSX native as well as other platforms) works with broadcast video servers (BVS) through industry API's ike VACP,MVCP, AVID Transfer Manager and brand-x APIs & lots of highend storage peripherals, however this is way over the top for me.
Setup costs (one time unlike disk storage which my its nature has to be ongoing):
- external desktop SAS ULTRIUM LTO 4 tape drives = $USD2700-$USD2900 (internal SAS Ultrium TAPE drives (not recommended) are about $USD1800 - no PS or cooling)
- SAS HBA (host buss adapter) anywhere from $USD130+. Depends on internal SAS or exteral SAS (infiniband) SFF-8088 or SFF-8470 external connectors
- SFF-8088(m) to SFF-8088 (m) or SFF-8470 (m) to SFF-8088(m) 1m cable 4x multilanes SAS/Infiniband interface cable ($USD50). NOTE some bundles SHIP with either of these cables. HP ships also with an INTERNAL SAS HBA edge connector and a PCI bracket with a straight through cable and HBA (LSI?)
- OSX native archive software ($USD150-$USD300) per seat
- Ultrium LTO4 tape media - anywhere from $USD45+. Cheaper elsewhere as low as $USD30 in bulk I believe. LTO4 Ultrium is 800GB UNCOMPRESSED currently. Thats simply thats about 380 minutes +/- R3D essence and less with the proxies!
- less power sucking spinning heat producing hardly accessed disk storage. (lol)
I have in house at my disposal at present:
- Tolisgroups BRU-PE software (BETA) - contact Tolisgroup: Ms Paige Jones for info else see their site.
- 1 x Quantum LTO4 Ultrium desktop SAS Tape drive model TC-L42BN with latest fimware that I put on it via bootcamp+windows XP and a load of frustration
- 1 x HP Utrium LTO4 SAS desktop Half Height tape drive model 1750 (using it right now)
- 1 x HP Ultrium 4 SAS FULL HEIGHT model 1840
- 1 x ATTOTECH R380 HBA (host buss adapter) in PCIE x4 slot (slot 3) in this 2007 MACPRO 8 core
- 1 x LSI SAS3442E-R PCI-E HBA configured as an HBA only in SLOT4 (x 4) in this 2007 MACPRO
- 2 x SFF-8088(m) to SFF-8088(m) 1M cables
- 1 x SFF-8470(m) to SFF-8088(m) from LSI SAS3442E PCIE HBA
What works w/ATTOTECH EXPRESSSAS PCIE HBA:
- Tolis GRoups BRU-PE software
- HP LTO4 Ultrium SAS Full Height 1840 desktop tape drive. WORKS THE BEST of all!
- HP LTO4 Utrium SAS Half Height (HH) desktop tape drive
- data tape block sizes (bufsize | blksize) up tp 16MB via ATTOTECH EXPRESS SAS HBA. not really effective beyond 2MB (2048KB). Selectable through the BRU CLI (-b option) or the GUI. Use LARGE blocksizes for R3D objects & other CMF's
- HBA configurable through MAC OSX native application - including firmware uploads etc.
What DOES NOT WORK with ATTO EXPRESSSAS PCIE HBA
- QUANTUM LTO4 ULTRIUM HH external SAS tape drive model TC-L42BN - Quantum know of this issue & there are several open tickets with them including mine. THey acknowledge a problem which is an "out of spec" issue with their SAS LTO4 implementation. Quantum say they are looking at it but have not given any time when the will fix their firmware. So its definately on the back burner. Aadvise=: DONT GO THERE.
What works with LSI LOGIC SAS3442E-R PCI HBA:
- Tolis GRoups BRU-PE software
- HP LTO4 Ultrium SAS Full Height 1840 desktop tape drive. WORK THE BEST of all!
- HP LTO4 Utrium SAS Half Height (HH) desktop tape drive
- QUANTUM LTO4 ULTRIUM HH external SAS tape drive model TC-L42BN - yep works OK!
- see BEWARE NOTES next!!
What DOES NOT WORK with LSI LOGIC SAS3442E-R PCI HBA:
- data tape block sizes greater (>) 1024KB | 1MB! - this will instantly lock up your MACPRO! so dont do it. :)
- impossible to configure HBA under MAC OSX. THere are simply only Linux, Solaris (??) and windows firmware & config tools for this card. It works out of the box because Apple have a LSI HBA driver in the OSX kernal extensions for the Apple FC RAid Card.. well that seems like the best explanation I can find. Any reconfgs need to be done on a windows etc machine that takes the HBAs. Sorry Parallels.app doesn't even see the HBAs.... so need bootcamp-able xp system on your MACPRO.
Performance of tape drives: This clearly and well known to be related to:
- the effective speed of the source or target storage device that is being used with the tape drive (usually a disk)
- the types of OBJECTS being archived or recalled - little objects cause the tape drive to slow down and startup. OK for normal use but really brings the data rate down.
- the blocksize (buffer size | bufsize | blksize) use to WRITE (archive) te material. smaller blocksizes require more I/O's. Larger blocksizes are wasteful on small objects. You choose.
- mixing taoe drives with disk arrays on the same HBA works fine BTW. Doent belive the old school B/S out there, especially form Quantum. use a different SAS target ID. I do this wi the ATTOTECH EXPRESSSAS R380 (deatil supplied if asked).
- lastly the SOFTWARE used for archive/recall. I believe that after OSX 10.4x was intrduced, any natve TAPE DEVICE drivers were not included in OSX. Thus the data tape device 'drivers' used in OSX Apps are implemented by each ISV (I.E Tolis Group, SGL or EMC etc).
The kind of performance I get using R3D and DVCPROHD & P2 MXF objects usually sits around:
- ARCHIVing (writing to data tape drive): 105MB/sec-113MB/sec. uncompressed of course. This is sourced from one of three disk arrays that are capable of up to 450MB/sec (AJA tool!)
- RECALLS (reads from tape device) are far less at 89MB/sec - 95MB/sec. Still looking at this but in reality doesn't effect my workflow. Still smokes FW, FW & some ESATA external disks.
HTH
W
01-28-2009, 08:19 AM
warwickt - this is a great amount of info. This is an enormous help. I'm looking for the most bullet proof setup for my Mac Pro.
Looking at HP's site, the main differences between the external SAS 1840 and 1760 is $1000 MSRP and 288 GB/hr rate?
I need to put in for a specific part number, so it looks like I'm between:
- HP StorageWorks LTO-4 Ultrium 1840 SAS External Tape Drive EH861A#ABA
- HP StorageWorks LTO-4 Ultrium 1760 SAS External Tape Drive EH920A#ABA
For the HBA, I figure I can get some internal ports if I want to do an SAS RAID some day.
ATTO EXPRESSSAS R348 (4 internal 4 external ports)
I'm not really clear on the cables I need... What should I get to connect the ATTO to the HP units?
I'll probably get both Retrospect and look into the BRU-PE when it becomes available.
All in all, I'm guessing about a $5000 investment... (gulp)
01-28-2009, 06:24 PM
Hi Flaminio, ok this is really easy for you fast performing and bullet proof archive system using HP Ultrium LTO tape SAS drives + ATTO TEch EXPRESSAS PCIE HBAs and some software like Tolisgroups BRU
1) HP SAS UTRIUM LTO4 DESKTOP TAPE DRIVES:
- all the data rates and specs are exactly the same. The data rates you shoudl look at as a creative guy is 120MB/sec MAX! because the material is uncompressible by the tape drive [which uses simple string compression techniques]. depending on the software are you use, the datarates may be less than this but it is amazingly fast anyway.
- the HP 1840 Ultrium LTO4 SAS tape drive is a FULL HEIGHT tape drive. It's at least 120mm high. (well mine is) Its really well made and much quiteter than the 1760 or that Quantum tape drive I have. The HP 1840 also seems to be slightly quicker performing rewinds and space | locate commands than the other tape drives I have.
- the HP 1760 SAS LTO4 ULTRIUM tape drive (which i have here too), is only a HALF HEIGHT drive. Its specs are the same as the FULL HEIGHT drive. this is a good tape drive too.
- both these tape drive use a multi-lane SAS SFF-8088 female connectors
2) Your ATTO EXPRESSAS R348 PCIE HBA
- yes this is excellent and will work flawlessly wi the HP tape drives.
- IF you DONT have any RAID need then you may want to consider using the HBA EXPRESSSAS verison only because it is less expensive
- the R348 has only one external SFF-8088 multilane connector so when you use the tape drive you cant hook anything else into the external part of the card unless you buy a special sas multilane 1-to-4 type cable ( a fan cable and they exist) . These exist. else buy a very expensive sas expander box.
- for a workflow you can always remove | unplug the TAPE drive from the HBA (hot pluggable) and plug in an external SAS disk array etc
- it's really easy
3) CABLES4) OSX based archive/backup software
- for the ATTO R348 and either of the HP tape drives above, you will need only a single sas-multilane SFF-8088 to SFF-8088 cable. They come in 1m and 2m.
- check an example here http://www.technoavenue.com/cbms-ms1m.html
- Mine cost around $HK550 | €55 | $USd64+
- check the internet .
I would REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, stay away from EMc's Retrospect. By all means try it out as a comparison. I used it ages ago (1995) when there was nothing else native for MAC. It caused me grief then and I don't intend to ever use it again. There was a new version announced at MacWorld and some posts suggest that the tape drive support is either non-existent for newer tape drives or dreadful. Sounds like something to look into and avoid.
Many of us on this list are using Tolisgroups BRU-LE with BRU-PE about to go public soon I believe.
5) Budget
- go with HP 1760 ULTRIUM SAS LTO4 SAS external desktop tape drive - well under $USD3000
- SFF-8088 to SFF-8088 1M cable = €USD64
- ATTO EXPRESS SAS HBA PCIE H380 (HBA only under $USd200)?
- mac osx based software = varies to taste
- LTO4 Ultrium data tape cartridges. You can get them from about $USd49 in lots of 10 or 20 if you look around. ALso cheaper if you really look hard.
HTH
w
01-29-2009, 05:24 AM
Once again, you're an enormous help.
Let me run this buy the group. I've got seven external FW800/eSATA drives (8.5TB and why I'm looking at LTO-4!) I've currently got them daisy chained w/ FW800. I was thinking of playing with a SATA card to run these instead, separate from this LTO project. Is there somewhere with combo multi-cables? Like SAS => 4x SATA and SAS => 3x SATA + 1x SAS? If so, would it make sense then to do as you suggest and get the ExpressSAS H380 to run 7 drives + tape drive? Or maybe just get a second H380? I'm not saying money is no object, but I'm a one-man studio here and time is important.
What if I wanted to RAID these, would I be better off with the R348? Another option would be to RAID my internal drives with the stock Apple SATA (4x 750 GB SATA). Basically, I was thinking of where I could RAID for the best performance, whether a boot/app drive and/or render, and media drive, if it's worth it. I'm a little cold on SAS drives because of the crazy cost, also decades of Apple experience makes me a little gunshy about running boot/apps off of a card. Anyway, open to any experience on what if any improvements I could do with my drive. (this is a 3 GHZ 8 core w/ 8 GB ram and RadeonX1900, BTW)
01-29-2009, 06:36 AM
HI thanks for the heads up. I have a stab at this.:detective2:
1) external disks (eSATA x 4)
If you just use the ATTOTECH H380 (SAS HBA only) you will get 2 external SFF-8088 connectors. THese on their own will adrres 8 SAS targets. Logically (with a SAS expander device) it addresses 128 or more .. someone correct me here?
If you use the R348 you have one external SFF-8088 for your external drives. USing the above SFF-8088_to_eSATA_fan cable would also work for you (see next) . You might then RAID the external 3xeSATA devices using the R384.
Again I have not tried this.
there are INTERNAL SAS to SATA fan cables! You might wanna have a look around(google) for the SATA-SFF8088. THese exist for EXTERNAL SFF-8088 to eSATA - check here for an example http://www.hptmac.com/US/product.php?_index=24. THe guys at Highpiont have them.. I have not tried them.
RAIDn - you could easily use Leopards software RAID(x) in the disk utility.app. THis will work okand get a good data rate *r/w) across 3 spindles easily. THese 3 external spindles (sas targets) will supply the HP tape drive on the 4th SAS target no worries.
Internal RAID for MACPRO; yes it can be done however it is messy using an PCI-E HBA taht was not BTP. You need an ilink I belive taht helps you connect the OEM RAID HBA (such as the ATTOTECH R348 or similat form Highpoint, Areco and the bunch) to teh SATA DDms you have in BAys1-4. Heres a lot (a great deal) of doc on this on the apple.discussions.
For me, I did not bother with this. I just used Apples software RAID (disk utility) on the 3 internal SATA 1x1TB WD's I have here. I use RAID0 with a 256KB stripe. works fine and is fast .. say as 180MBsec +/- using the AJA KONA tool.. Againthis can be a can or worms as they say:)
OPTIONS: use the empty PCIE slots in your MACPRO as:
- ATTOTECH H380 for your tape drive and use the spare slot for 3 of youe eSATA disk using the SFF-8088_to_eSATA disks in a JBOD (x3) or use apple s/w raid for them and
- use another slot for a much cheaper RAIDx PCIE HBA say from ARECA or HIGHPOINT etc. These are really cheap. You will need a small JBOD enclosure for these. There are many around. I use PROAVIO. Maybe later buy some 1TB disks whe they are $USd50/each soon (WD 's new2TB's are out now!)
SAS DRIVES:
well you really DO pay for what you get. SAS drives are more expensive for a reason vs the cheapness and extensive riskyness of the SATA disks. This is why you need something like a data tape drive.
Yeah it looks like you have the same 2007 MAC PRO 3GHz 8 core that I do.
I didn't answer all you questions , but I'm sure may others will have better advice.
w
07-18-2009, 09:23 AM
Hi there. I've read many of your posts regarding setting up LTO-4 backup. And I wanted to ask for some advice.
The atto configuration tool is showing: Driver Name: Unknown: driver not loaded.
I've run the installers, uninstallers, switched the two raid cards slots, etc. all to no avail. Can you offer any advice?
Here's what I have.
HP LTO-4 1840 SAS
ATTO R380 HBA
Tolis Bru-PE
Mac Running 0S-X 10.5.7
Also: High Point Rocketraid 2322, SAS
Proavio Tower with 2 SAS connections, running raid 5
3 internal SATA drives running raid 0
1 internal SATA for the os
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