Ok, so here's my setup, what do you think Gibby?

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Great discussion that looks at real world issues for convergence shooters. Thanks, once again, to Gibby for the time he devotes to these subjects.

My bias is toward a PL mount S16 zoom for Tim and here's why: a more direct optical path (the B4 and converter is a kludge full of compromises for a single plane sensor), DoF that suits run and gun, used Angie zooms are easy to find in Tim's price range, with the right rigging it should allow servo control with the RED control grip - if that is too pricey or seems like too much of an add on then just practice using the manual zoom ring on the lens barrel MAKE SURE YOUR LENS IS CLEAN AND LUBED OR YOU WILL HATE THE MANUAL ZOOM.

I know that the rocker type zoom control is probably your comfort zone but unless you need a slow silky push or pull the manual allows quite a bit of artistic control - snaps, presses that pick up speed with the action, etc. For the stealth stuff you can just frame up and then roll.

[TimothyD]

Thanks Blair,

I think Gibby must be doing some shooting since he never replied to this:)

Here's praying that he is somehow shooting with #8 already so we can hear his feedback!

Anyway, I am definitely leaning toward S16. I wonder though if I could run and gun with a still lens if I put a filter on it to increase the depth of field? If so that would be the absolute cheapest way to go... The question then would be: how a still lens would respond when zooming, and what a good lens for my main stuff would be that doesn't have many problems with breathing. Maybe there are other problems I am not forseeing with still glass too?

I can't go without a zoom control of some kind. I floated that idea to my boss and he wasn't too hip to it:) I'd personally be willing to try it, but I do need to do real nice slow pushes and pulls sometimes, so it might not work like you said...

So I'm thinking that if I can somehow get Red to give me a price on a supergrip and redmotor (even a high estimate) then, providing they were within my price range I would be able to go that route. I am interested to see how the joystick works on the supergrip though. When I hear it described I picture something like a thumb stick on a video game joystick. I can't imagine that would be as easy to do a smooth zoom with as a rocker, but maybe I'm just not understanding how it works.

I'm sure there is a picture of one of the prototype supergrips on here somewhere, but I can't find it by searching to get an idea of what the zoom control would be like.

I'd personally love a simple rocker that I could mount anywhere I wanted on the camera. I know other companies make rockers, but I'd like a Red rocker that is a little nicer and could easily mount to any of the points on the camera.

Thanks again for the info. I'm still in daily deliberation.

Any thoughts on still vs. S16? Also, any suggestions of good places to find used S16 glass if I go that route? Gibby had mentioned rental houses, which seems like a safe bet, but I'm not sure what ones I should contact. Do you know if Abel carries any used equipment?

Thanks,

Tim

[Damien Molineaux]

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I wonder though if I could run and gun with a still lens if I put a filter on it to increase the depth of field? If so that would be the absolute cheapest way to go... The question then would be: how a still lens would respond when zooming, and what a good lens for my main stuff would be that doesn't have many problems with breathing. Maybe there are other problems I am not forseeing with still glass too?

<cut>

Hi Tim,

About the points above, if you want increased depth of field, you need to stop DOWN therefore you need to minimize ND filters.

I also think S16 is the way to go, with a Red motor and Super grip if you want motorized zooming. I've found a reasonably priced Zeiss S16 T2.4 12-120 mm, but the lens I would really like is the Canon 8-64mm T2.4

It's supposed to have superb image quality and 8mm is a lot wider than 12. For S16, a 16mm lens corresponds pretty closely to a normal angle of view.

S16 vs still lenses : wider range, not many 8 to 64mm zooms for still. The widest Canon ultra wide zoom is 10-22 and opens f3.5-4.5, next one up is the 16-35 f2.8, which is supposed to be very nice, but on a 2k sized sensor that barely gives you a normal angle of view. I mention Canon lenses here because they can be remotely zoomed with the Red/Birger mount for Canon lenses, and a Super grip.

Still lenses are made for large sensors (or negative), doesn't mean you can't use them for an S16 sized sensor (2k windowed) but personnaly, I'm planning to go the still (Nikon) route for 4k capture only.

I'd love to have pricing on the Red motor and Super grip, it would nicely complement my Zeiss zoom, but I think I'll have to hold on that purchase for a while, unless it's really agressively priced.

Cheers,
Damien

[TimothyD]

Hi Earthling,

Well I feel like an idiot on the DOF question. I had it backwards because I was thinking the extra light from a larger lens was the reason for the shorter DOF. The whole sensor size and lens size thing as it relates to DOF is pretty confusing to me.

As far as the lens choice goes, I do think S16 would be the simplest way to achieve what I am used to. I also think the reduced file size of cropped 2k would make a lot of sense in terms of data storage.

I guess I'll be trying to find a good price on an S16 lens, and praying they release the prices for the supergrip and redmotor before I have to put in my order...

Thanks,

Tim

[Steve Gibby]

TimothyD,

You're right...I've been on location in Yosemite shooting, but not with RED #8 (don't have it yet).

S16 is a definitely viable option for what you want to shoot, and especially since you don't already own a B4 2/3" HD ENG zoom.

If you decide to go with a S16, RED motor, SuperGrip setup, do some searches on RED User for "S16mm lenses" etc. and you'll find several threads about them. For your stated uses you'll need a fairly long focal length zoom, which narrows down the selection somewhat. Some are huge and heavy and you mentioned that hand held and shoulder mounting are some of your uses. The average B4 2/3" zoom weighs between 4 and 6 pounds. S16mm long zooms can weigh much more than that. Consider all ergonomic and weight issues carefully.

Before you complete the purchase of any used lens, research out the performance characteristics of the lens here and elsewhere on the Web, and insist on having an independent lens technician examine the lens for problems. Reserve the right to decline completing the purchase if the lens technician finds problems you don't want to deal with.

Though you mentioned that 4k shooting isn't a priority for you, keep in mind that the upward ability to shoot 4k will not be an option with either S16mm or B4 2/3" lenses.

The RED 18-50mm zoom sounds like too short a focal length for your stated needs. If RED was offering a longer focal length S35mm zoom, maybe a 25-200mm, I'd suggest you explore that option for use with a RED motor/SuperGrip setup. I have no knowledge of such, but it wouldn't surprise me to see RED announce a longer focal length S35mm zoom sometime in the future. A S35 lens will obviously cover the 2k and 1080p formats you will be shooting in.

You're doing the right things: asking questions and exploring options. That's what each one of us does to satisfy the needs of the genres and sub-genres that we shoot. Keep asking and exploring...it's a career-long process.

[TimothyD]

Hi Gibby,

So good to see you back!!! Though I do wish that you somehow already had number 8 and had test reports for us:)

I am definitely thinking that S16 is the safest bet, but I do have one major hurdle, I have to turn in my list of the equipment I want to purchasing very, very soon. That means that without a price on the Redmotor and Supergrip I cannot order them. In my initial plan I had specified the Red 18-85 zoom and a separate motor and zoom controller, but it sounded like the zoom controller was intended to work on a tripod handle...

So I am wondering if forced to go with a non-Red zoom controller would I actually be able to use it in the fashion I am accustomed to? I also realize that I would have no record button affixed to the controller, so that adds another level of difficulty.

All of these issues with lenses are quite daunting, and dare I say it, are forcing me to look at other options, none of which are very appealing to me.

For the sake of argument, knowing my situation, which "competing" ENG camera would you suggest? I am thinking XDCAM (PDW-F330) or AG-HPX500, but don't really like the compromises that each require. Do you know of any other camera that would fit the bill?

If I somehow do have to buy a different camera, I will still be buying at the very least the pocket Red for my own personal use doing documentaries, but I will never have the option to go with Red for work again. (as I will be stuck with whatever I buy for many years to come). This is quite a frustrating decision for me...

Thanks so much,

Tim

[TimothyD]

One other question,

Are there any manual mechanisms for zoom control that would be workable for me? Could a follow focus be used for zoom instead assuming that the gears are the same?

And one other thought Gibby in regard to the size and weight of S16 zooms. What do you think of the idea of a shorter zoom for general use, and a long prime for candid shots of students on campus? I think I could get away with 10x or less on the zoom, and then would want the longest prime I could afford to go with it. Though I'd really like to shoot the candid shots in 4k, and maybe the 300mm Red prime would be the ticket for those shots?

Thanks,

Tim

[Steve Gibby]

Timothy,

Here's my thoughts on what you asked:

I have no guess on the price of the RED Motor or SuperGrip. Based on the very reasonable price of the rest of the RED products, I would assume that the price of the RM and SG will also be priced very reasonably.

There are various zoom controllers on the market. They are designed to interface with the standard gears of lenses.

Though there will not be a record button on a SG, there will be a record button on the camera. Getting used to that should be easy.

If you have to go to a straight ENG camera instead of RED One, there is a wide selection of cameras to fit those needs. You mentioned a few of them - F330 and HPX500. Each has their pluses and minuses. If you have to go that way, research them closely and make sure you'll be happy with your choice.

If RED One doesn't fit your fiscal acquisition schedule, you may be able to buy one personally at a later date, or, as you mentioned, buy a RED PPC if it's features would service your needs.

I think you should consider zooming less with RED One, if you are able to get one, or zooming less when you shoot with any EFP/ENG camera. Cine-style shooting usually involves less zooming and less use of zooms for the most part. I think too many EFP/ENG shooters rely on zooming just because they have a zoom. When I use a zoom, I always zoom with it sparingly and mostly use it as a variable prime. I usually only zoom during a shot/take when I feel it is the best choice and it won't distract viewers from the continuity of the shot and story.

A two lens approach, with maybe a RED 18-50 zoom and a RED 300mm prime is workable. Remember, when using the 300mm prime you'll need to walk forward and backward to get the framings you're looking for. If that is workable, you have time to change between lenses, and your movement won't distract the students you are shooting, it is a viable solution.

Hope this helps...

[chuck colburn]

Gibby,

If you weren't shooting with #8, which number was it? lol

[Steve Gibby]

Gibby,

If you weren't shooting with #8, which number was it? lol

I wish it was a RED camera, but unfortunately my toolkit was a 1080p camera and a DSLR! The subject matter was unreal though - crystal clear skies, max-flow waterfalls, and breathtaking rock faces. Shots everywhere. Thought I'd get the Yosemite stock footage and pics in before the Memorial Day rush. The whole time there, surrounded by unbelievable photo opportunities, I found myself visualizing myself using RED One for the same shots in 4k REDCODE RAW - which is exactly what I'll do later this year. I kinda felt like I was hunting rhino with a .22 - or in Rogue River terms, fishing for steelhead with 2 lb test line!