Ok, so here's my setup, what do you think Gibby?

[JD Holloway]

The only problem with so many configurations is,

A) so much more gear to drag about!
b) little time to get truly comfortable with one setup, I will have many.

While operating off a dolly is one thing, the need to feel as if the camera is part of my body when doing ENG/EPK work is invaluable to me. I fear there will be much practice before we find configurations that feel "in the zone" when we have so many options. Next winter will be busy.

[TimothyD]

Excellent info all around...

Gibby, before I forget, I am crossing my fingers that you get #8 and get to do that testing before I have to turn in my RFP next month, it had seemed likely, then the 1 month delay:(

I am going to have to find out if we could get a full refund if for some reason there is a problem with using the camera for ENG/EFP that was not anticipated. It seems very unlikely, but is a scary situation for me.

Another big problem is that if they don't release prices soon for the Supergrip and Redmotor, I won't be able to order them anyway... So 2/3" or still glass it is.

I have access to literally TONS of Canon still glass here, and can use it whenever I want. So that is definitely an option, but the powered zoom is a major conundrum.

I also had read that there are lots of problems with breathing (not even sure what that means) with still lenses, and inconsistent aperture over the range of a zoom. I need a true run and gun configuration, so that is a major concern for me.

Any thoughts on this, how feasible is still glass for run and gun?

My boss thought it was a bad idea when I told him that a zoom would be cobbled together with either a zip-tie style gear attached, or retrofitted with a gear for a price... He did not like that idea at all.

Ultimately, here's my dream config:

1. 2/3" zoom reworked to get rid of the glass that is meant to make it work with a prism.

2. Canon mount version (in addition to PL) of B4 adapter so I can just swap still and 2/3" glass whenever I want without collimation. (Still no word from Red on if this can or will be done, no reply to my posts about it. But someone did say it was IMPOSSIBLE, so I'm guessing Red can and will do it, but I need to know...)

Thanks so much folks,

Tim

[TimothyD]

By the way, my 2 cents worth on 2k RAW with a 2/3" lens is that I am going to shoot it that way even if only a tad beyond the 1080 frame is usable. That way I can pan and scan, zoom a bit, and more importantly, stabilize the images. I don't want to be locked into RGB if I can avoid it. Plus, Jim says RGB "SUCKS" so maybe they will go with 1080 and 720 RAW too, and just drop RGB... Who knows...

[JD Holloway]

...must have (clip-on?) matte box.

[TimothyD]

...must have (clip-on?) matte box.

Planning to try screw on filters as per Gibby's suggestion, at least at first to see how I do with it. Typically I'm either outside or inside for long periods. Very occasionally I have to follow someone from indoors to outdoors, or vice-versa, but very rarely.

Tim

[Steve Gibby]

Timothy,

"Breathing" is simply when a lens' optics change the focal length slightly when you focus the lens. Almost all lenses have some degree of breathing, but the better lenses only show a small amount of it. An example of when it could affect a shot is when you are racking focus between subjects. If the framing shifts slightly then that's the effect of breathing. The less breathing the better, but there are budgets to consider too - the less a lens breathes, usually the more expensive it is, with some definite exceptions when you're talking about 35mm still lenses.

The B4 lens option, in tandem with the 1080p/720p acquisition options, were included on RED One because RED knew that RED One, beyond its obvious digital cinema uses, would also be used extensively for broadcast EFP productions. The B4 option is the most economic and logical for those entities that already have B4 2/3" HD ENG lenses for their present cameras, will shoot with RED One mostly for their HDTV and other HD projects, and are not seeking 35mm DOF. They simply have to add in a RED B4 adapter and they're all set. You're not in that category. You don't already have a 2/3" HD ENG lens, so the setup costs for you are higher than those entities that already have a lens. Thus it's a more complex situation for you to solve fiscally.

I'll be exploring the 35mm still lens for EFP possibilities thoroughly. Today's modern 35mm still lenses, which are designed for digital work, give us a great performance to cost ratio. Those on a budget, and especially those of us who already have access to quality 35mm still lenses, should take a hard look at the possibilities there. The Birger adapters make it even more interesting. Today's 35mm still lenses can give you near-35mm cine lens performance, but there are workarounds involved to solve the setup and field workflow. Make no mistake about it though, good cine lenses are the best glass you can put on a RED One. That's why I've also ordered all of the RED lenses. But then again I work in a real broad spectrum of cine-style and EFP style productions, so I need an equally wide assortment of lenses, adapters, and accessories. Your needs are more narrow, so you should be able to figure it all out soon.

Yes, the testing of RED #8 will help give everyone on RED User some data to make decisions with. It's my camera, but I will be taking an essentially hand off position for the testing, and simply letting the experienced team of testers from all genres of the cine style and EFP style industry, get the hands on work with the camera. I've asked Evin Grant to direct the testing, and he has accepted. The testing team has been selected, and their names will be released shortly.

Hope this helps...

[TimPipher]

Thanks for all the great info., guys. And especially to you, Gibby, for this thread and all the others.

What would the advantage be of the Canon lens for $8,200 vs. the Red zoom for $6,500?

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks for all the great info., guys. And especially to you, Gibby, for this thread and all the others.

What would the advantage be of the Canon lens for $8,200 vs. the Red zoom for $6,500?

When I'm here on RED User, I'm always glad to help...

The Canon lens is a B4 2/3" HD ENG zoom lens. Timothy is used to that form factor of lens. His current camera is a standard definition Sony DXC-637 BetaCam with a 2/3" ENG zoom. What he shoots is essentially mobile EFP stuff around his college campus. As his school upgrades to RED One, he's hoping to be able to use a B4 2/3" ENG zoom with a zoom rocker - which is enabled by RED One's 12 volt auxiliary power. His problem is that B4 lenses on RED One require use of an adapter, plus his current SD zoom doesn't have the optical quality to be used on RED One.

I'm buying a RED 18-50 zoom. When I handled the 18-50 at RED on 4/3, while shooting DSLR pics for my NAB article, I was impressed by the size, workmanship and seeming potential for the lens in my mobile workflows. I'll use it with a REDGrip, RED Motor, lightweight follow focus (still deciding which), and a lightweight clip-on matte box. I think that setup will be excellent for mobile EFP work, especially docs, sports (not action, but behind-the-scenes), commercials, music videos, business media projects, some reality, stabilization units, jibs, housings (minus FF & MB), etc. With it I'll either shoot 4k RC RAW or sometimes 2k RC RAW for higher frame rates. I think the RED 18-50 zoom could end up being an excellent addition to anybody's lens kit.

Hope this helps...

[Mike the beginner]

I guess we could sum up with this thread that until proper testing is done, perhaps we should hold fire........

Glad JDHolloway posted his possible set-up, my set up would be pretty similar.

Gibby i was panicking a bit until JDs post and your own, which is now starting to include the birger option and the canon still lenses.

I wonder if the colimation issues with changing the mounts whilst important are not being overly stated!

I worked in the auto industry for some years being a fully technically qualified on dealing with fuel injection equipment where fine tolerances where common. Keep the conditions clean and be careful in what you do allows you to raplace shims with tiny micro thin tolerances without any problems. Done with respect and due care and attention i hope the mount changes from PL to birger mount without any colimation etc.

The new canon lenses like the 16mm-35mm L series seems an exciting route with the only seemingly drawbacks as stated i.e. the breathing and possibly even more drawback with the short focusing issues with still lenses in general.

I am pleased Gibby is offering to do this testing and all the others invloved with him. My thanks to him and his team in advance. You guys are great.

Edit: re-short focusing, i am refering to the small amount of movement on the focusing ring in comparison to cine lenses. Thus making it extremely difficult to follow focus on a moving target.

Mike the beginner

[TimothyD]

Hey everybody,

Sorry it took me a while to respond...

Thanks once again Gibby for all the great info. So, since I do have access to a lot of still glass, perhaps I should go that route? And on the other hand, a simple way to have a similar setup and characteristics to 2/3" glass, without the compromise in terms of light and FOV is obviously to use S16 glass instead. So...

I always have more questions every time you give me answers Gibby:) So now that I am considering the possibility of shooting with either still or S16 glass, I am wondering which would be easier in terms of run and gun?

I heard that moving up from SD to HD or any higher rez format makes camera moves more difficult? If so, that seems like it could be a reason for me to go with S16 over 35mm? 35mm certainly would give me the most versatility in terms of lens choices (more than one:), but can I really run and gun with it?

Considering that you have tons of experience with all manner of formats, how would you describe the difference between SD and higher rez shooting?

BTW, I certainly also would consider the Red zoom, but I assumed that it would not reach out as far as I need to. I currently have a 16x zoom, and need even more reach to manage to get candid shots of students enjoying the campus. (They either: scatter, wave or make faces if they see me with the camera aimed at them)

Thanks in advance for your help Gibby,

Tim