What about docs?

[Alexander Black]

Also, does anyone know if they have phased out the 18-85mm zoom for the 18-50 zoom?

I believe - but am not sure - that this is the case.

To the original poster, I think an HPX500 with a bunch of 16 and soon 32GB cards or a red is your best bet. Red will be more expensive and much higher quality, the HPX will put out standard HD and can be had with lens for $19k or so.

As others have mentioned, in your case it would probably make sense to use S16 lenses and windowed 2k so you have S16 style larger DoF (which means you don't necessarily have to have a puller) and you could get away with a stripped down "cageless" setup.

Still, the thing is no DVX100 - but then neither is an HPX. Both cameras have some heft, both will give you back problems if not used with care :)

[Brook Willard]

I believe - but am not sure - that this is the case.

As far as I know this is incorrect. The 18-85 has been put on hold/delay for now. An 18-85 reservation holder can switch their reservation to the 18-50 if they want... or they can wait for the 18-85 as they were originally promised.

[Alex D. da Silva]

At full 4K and film lenses, handheld run and gun docs will be hard, heavy and risky but not impossible.
Using a S16 lens or the B4 adaptor at 2k will make things a bit easier. This will give us a substantial higher resolution than 1080p or even in most cases S16mm.
The flash cards (or a few of them) are a great solution to make the whole set lighter and practical. I've just finished filming a doc with three 8 gigs P2 cards and it worked, so…
Anyway, soon we'll hear from many real life situations with their solutions and challenges.

[mike70]

Thanks, guys, very helpful discussion.

1. So,if we use 2k, the focusing problem is greatly reduced. Also, it probably negates one of Sceptic's objections. as the focal length will also increase. If it's 25-75 in 4k, what is it in 2k?

2. Eliminating the drive and going with the flash module would help with the weight, but I can see Sceptic's point re: load changes and the drive raid worries. I agree, Ken (hope you're feeling better), that a 30 minute load is great, but what will the modules cost and how many do you have to have to get you through the day? If they're $500 apiece, you would probably have 4 of them. that's two hours of shooting, which means that somehow, someone is going to have to download them at lunch, unless you've got another 4 for the afternoon. Of course, it if only takes 2 seconds to dowload them, I dont' see a problem with that, and then you've killed two birds (weight and raid 0) with one stone.

I have a question about the flash modules: if the 300gb drive gives you an hour and a half at 4k (or according to Stewart twice that at 2k) how can the 32gb flash module give you a half hour?

[Bruce Allen]

AOne of the Red team members suggested since I had 4K footage, I could zoom in in post and get my close ups. How do I plan that while hand holding? Using a 2/3" lens or a 16mm lens is not taking advantage of the Red promise--full 35mm depth of field. Using a high quality 2/3" HD zoom with the 3500.00 B4 adaptor = mondo bucks. Another suggestion was buy a Cooke 5:1 on the open market. Not sure what that might run. Perhaps 2X the cost of the Red body?

Actually, zooming in in post goes very well with hand-hold footage. Because if you are zooming in a lot, you have huge ability to stabilize the footage in post with the many, many available smooth-moving filters on the market right now. All of them require a little zoom-in to work their magic.

I asked another Red fellow about Raid 0 safety issues, what happened to Raid 1, he told me, that that I might want to shoot with the Flash chips. Again flash chips will not work for a Doc.

I think it's safer than HDCAM. Because you can make make many duplicate copies of your "master tapes" onto many hard drives every evening / lunch-time on a laptop. Also, if RAID dies on set, it'll probably let you know. So you can re-shoot. It's not always possible to re-shoot, I know, but better than stressing about tape heads like in the old days.

Red seems like a fantastic system, but it still needs to prove itself day in and day out. As an owner/operator, I can't invest that kind of capital without a track record or client base. It is a tremendous bargain going up against the Sony F-900 or a Viper, but the original DVX on steroids concept does not apply. A basic rig with the 3:1 zoom costs 10 times as much as the DVX. Treating Red as an experiment without a built in client base requires very deep pockets.

True! The shallowness of my pockets means I can't buy one either. But it does make the F-900 and Viper seem sorta silly. If you're talking in "investment" terms, would you rather buy a share in:
- a) a company that you know is 1/10th of it's true market worth, is not well-known, but has passionate backers with deep pockets who are in it for the long term (eg Red)
or
- b) a company that is overpriced but has been around for a long time (eg F-23, F-900, Varicam)
Oh, and the whole market is going down at the moment (depreciation of digital camera costs)...

I'd either not buy at all, buy Red, or rent Red and buy a cheap HDV cam like a HV20. The other expensive cameras seem crazy to me.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Milan Nikolic]

I am one man documentary crew. Can I handle RED ONE in the same manner. Discussion in this thread made me question that.

[Moir]

Pardon my inexperience, but isn't the applicability of Red linked to your intended production style? EFP isn't monolithic. If your projects(s) involve running around under enemy fire, with zero time for set-up, then it seems you would be better off with something smaller and cheaper.

Image quality under such scenarios is often secondary to dramatic content - even cell phone camera footage gets broadcast these days.

If, on the other hand, you have time to compose and properly expose your shots, I don't see why Red should not be a fantastic EFP camera.

I'm a single-handed shooter, but much of what I do is static - sitting in hides shooting tripod-mounted. I hope and believe Red will be an ideal camera for this sort of work.

[Steve Gibby]

If, on the other hand, you have time to compose and properly expose your shots, I don't see why Red should not be a fantastic EFP camera.

I'm a single-handed shooter, but much of what I do is static - sitting in hides shooting tripod-mounted. I hope and believe Red will be an ideal camera for this sort of work.

It will...

I've done lot of docs, including some Emmy Award winning docs: adventure travel, cultures, lifestyle, action sports, and nature, to name a few genres.

Accessorized and lensed correctly IMO RED One can be a superb mobile non-hardlined EFP camera - and I'll use my RED One's for exactly that, plus a multitude of cine-style projects too. I love shooting stock footage single-handed in mobile EFP style, and I'll be doing exactly that with my REDs in my "spare" time.

This thread should really be located in the "EFP and ENG with RED" forum, and it looks like many of the posters here could benefit from reading my EFP & ENG FAQ on that forum.

[Ken Corben]

I am one man documentary crew. Can I handle RED ONE in the same manner. Discussion in this thread made me question that.

Again, I'd say absolutely YOU CAN DO IT - I'm planning on it. It's not voodoo, it's a camera. Frame, focus and hit record. The main issue that may not be fully understood by us EFP guys with no cinema style background is focus. Yes there is the issue of adjustable shutter, frame rate and exposure settings that also may be new to some of us but it's simple and we'll save that for later.

I think it is important to clearly understand the focus concerns in 4K raised in reduser are primarily cinema-centric. Obviously the shot needs to be in focus no matter what but let's clearly define the concern so that shooters in EFP like you and me that are invested in REDONE and excited about its potential remain in focus:

Cinema style - DP's job is to conrol every photon that hits the film plane or CMOS sensor. To effectively paint with light. This is usually done in fstops between WFO and f4 depending on the lighting budgets. Typically more towards the lower end as less light is more from an artistic standpoint. There in lies the critical focus concern - the DOF (depth of field) at lower fstops.

EFP - Exterior daylight with REDONE is less "challenging" for focus since we are working at higher fstops where the DOF is far more forgiving. Take the Peter Jackson aerial footage shot at f8 - everything is in focus from 10' (?) to nearly infinity. You didn't see an AC racking focus on the fly in those shots. The fun challenge as a filmmaker with REDONE EFP in the field is selecting the right combination of ND and pola filters to achieve fabulous 4K images not shot HOT at f22 - this is assuming the camera rating of 320 in equatorial sunlight at mid-day. The result - washed out images that Jim refered to as "don't shoot everything at f22."

So if I am filming a pod of spinner dolphins moving off in to the sunset at f4 and fading fast, yes it's possible I may buzz the focus as a one-person shooter given the fading light, fast moving subjects and the piloting skills of the boat driver - that challenge is part of the fun for me.

Obviously there are exceptions already mentioned previously in this thread. I am a natural history filmmaker and speak from this POV. Please keep in mind I am not a master but rather a student of film. I am sharing based on my experience and opinion and may be wrong at times. But hey - there are masters on this forum that are contributing freely of their knowledge - now that's way cool!

PS - I say student of FILM just to pull Gibby's chain - the best part is he get's my sense of humor and has said, "keep 'em coming Sharky." Not sure if that's a warning though?

[Ken Corben]

Thanks, guys, very helpful discussion.

1. So,if we use 2k, the focusing problem is greatly reduced. Also, it probably negates one of Sceptic's objections. as the focal length will also increase. If it's 25-75 in 4k, what is it in 2k?

It would be 50-150mm in 2K. I am not an expert in the DSLR to 35mm lens format conversion factor and may be wrong by a few mm in either direction - I am using information posted on this forum by more knowledgable DP's.

I have a question about the flash modules: if the 300gb drive gives you an hour and a half at 4k (or according to Stewart twice that at 2k) how can the 32gb flash module give you a half hour?

I was using the presumption of 1 GB/min with 4k redcode RAW on a formatted card. If it is 90 minutes/300 GB then the flash yields 3GB/min or 10 minutes, basically the equivalent of a 1000' 35mm mag. That is still very impressive. The 32GB flash cards are listed at $1500 - how much does an ARRI 1000' mag cost?

And yes, the workflow is new to us EFP guys so even with 3 digital mags (32GB flash cards) someone has to be downloading the cards to HDD's.