Thread: The PAL problem

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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Lubensky View Post
    I'm pretty certain it's a marketing limitation, not hardware related one.

    From the day 1 Red introduced Scarlet - it's a "Canon" marketing strategy - cripple the camera in a way it can not compete with another one, still giving basic performance. Scarlet MX only differs by the amount of RAM chips on board - on EPIC the amount is twice as much. That's it, no lacking performance sensors, nothing in real. Same camera, and have always been. The trick with Scarlet W > Dragon X only proves it, same sensor with hardware limitation built in on purpose.
    That only makes half sense. As Epic, and top of the line red cameras has always hd a max limit not that could not be cut in fractions of 25. Epic 5k maxed out at 96 fps or such, dont remember.

    But yes the x was limited to have a better price spread between cameras. But when others started to sell 6k for a lot less Red had to pull the plug. Im sure if it was posdible they would alow 6k 50p on komodo.
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  2. #22  
    Senior Member Alex Lubensky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    That only makes half sense. As Epic, and top of the line red cameras has always hd a max limit not that could not be cut in fractions of 25. Epic 5k maxed out at 96 fps or such, dont remember.

    But yes the x was limited to have a better price spread between cameras. But when others started to sell 6k for a lot less Red had to pull the plug. Im sure if it was posdible they would alow 6k 50p on komodo.
    Red def. relies on 24fps timebase as "default". What I'm speaking is - it's not about hardware. I bet 2fps could be maxed out of even Scarlet MX for PAL, and in case of Komodo - sure.
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  3. #23  
    Senior Member William Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bastien Tribalat View Post
    Well, I hear you (coming from a "pal country") but you have to take into account that RED is making CINEMA cameras. You can use them for anything you want BUT they are tailored for cinema/fiction/commercials and in those industry you either shoot for screenings in theater (24fps or 48fps if HFR cinema is still a thing) or for HD/UHD TV (23.976 or 29.967 fps in NTSC countries and 25fps in PAL regions). Plus, with the change from DWT to DCT compression on Redcode because of how small the camera is I'm pretty sure if they could have done 50fps at 6K, they would have but it's a technical limitation (and again, since the camera is made primarly for use on features and TV series that's ok).

    Maybe in the future they can put the 5K@50fps via firmware update but for the moment you would have to settle for 50fps at a m4/3-ish crop at 4K on Komodo.

    I'm not sure RED makes cameras just for cinema - and commercials often end up on television?
    As an aside, the BBC accepts delivery at 25 or 50fps.
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  4. #24  
    Epic did 96 fps full sensor, It had 4 cpus inside scarlet mx had 2 cpus and did half. I think if epic could have made 100 fps then red would have done it that way. As most of the world actually lives in 50hz.

    I would giess its not red but the limit is allready set by the sensor manufacturer. Alot of computer stuff is built around 60hz instead of 50hz like computer screens etc. So a wild guess is that there is bits and bobbs inside the camera that needs to run at a rate in fractions of 60.
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  5. #25  
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    Given that 24fps is kind of the default fps speed for many cameras, what if you just shot at 25fps and used that as your base speed in 25Hz countries (like Europe, Asia, Africa, and so on)? 25fps is a widely-accepted workflow that goes very smoothly in post.
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  6. #26  
    Senior Member William Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wielage View Post
    Given that 24fps is kind of the default fps speed for many cameras, what if you just shot at 25fps and used that as your base speed in 25Hz countries (like Europe, Asia, Africa, and so on)? 25fps is a widely-accepted workflow that goes very smoothly in post.
    Marc, shooting 25fps is the standard for television in 50Hz countries. We would only shoot 24fps if the project was also going to cinema.
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  7. #27  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wielage View Post
    Given that 24fps is kind of the default fps speed for many cameras, what if you just shot at 25fps and used that as your base speed in 25Hz countries (like Europe, Asia, Africa, and so on)? 25fps is a widely-accepted workflow that goes very smoothly in post.
    This is exactly why the entire PAL region of the world gets missed when cameras are designed in NTSC regions. PAL means that the timebase is always 25fps and that lights are at 50 Hz. We need 25 fps and 50 fps because that is our standard, nothing else.

    So we essentially can't use Komodo in 5K at 48 fps because of this standard. It can't be used for slomo in practical light situations or for any kind of HDRx feature if added to the camera. So the only option for us is to lower resolution and get a zoomed-in image with worse supersampling in order to just meet this basic standard.

    This is why this is a problem and why I urge Red to fix these 2 lacking frames in 5K mode. Because these 2 frames create a ton of problems that just feels so unnecessary.
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  8. #28  
    Senior Member Andy Roberts's Avatar
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    Christopher, maybe you already know this, but Komodo 6K 2.4:1 shoots 49.95 FPS. It is obviously not 5K full frame, but pretty close.

    Frame comparison using Phil's Format Compare tool:
    http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare/...&focalLengths=

    Given the fact that this is possible, it possible to me that 5K will get it added. The 5K is a fuzz taller. Obviously the 6K WS is much wider... so there are more pixels but they are horizontal. So if there is some issue with horizontal resolution versus vertical that affects frame rate, then maybe that is the issue.
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  9. #29  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Roberts View Post
    Christopher, maybe you already know this, but Komodo 6K 2.4:1 shoots 49.95 FPS. It is obviously not 5K full frame, but pretty close.

    Frame comparison using Phil's Format Compare tool:
    http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare/...&focalLengths=

    Given the fact that this is possible, it possible to me that 5K will get it added. The 5K is a fuzz taller. Obviously the 6K WS is much wider... so there are more pixels but they are horizontal. So if there is some issue with horizontal resolution versus vertical that affects frame rate, then maybe that is the issue.
    Frame rates usually has to do with vertical pixels, but since this is a global shutter, there has to be some other measurement for frame rate limits.

    If there is no way to get 5K to 50 fps, at least create a resolution choice where it perfectly hits 50 fps. If that special resolution is 4.7K or something, then that is at least better for a slomo and supersampling sweet spot. Rather than having to lower things to 4K.

    I hope Red and Jarred is reading this thread because lots more than me seem to agree with the 50 fps importance. It’s much more important than the 96 fps limit back on the Epic, since 50 fps works as a standard.
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  10. #30  
    But Christoffer, For what productions would you roll with 50p as project framerate. I worked on well over 7000 productions in europe, so far I have not worked on a 50p one. And for slomo you can alter the shutter speed to get around the hz issues.

    Sure its nice to roll 50fps and know that you can use ever second frame to get away from the slomo if a edit decision is made that ask for real time. But also then, converting 24p to 25p timebase is not really an issue. Its done on pretty much every feature film shown on tv. Just stretch the sound and nobody will notice a thing.

    Not saying 50p is not a nice thing to have but as I see it its tons of ways to work around it.
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