Thread: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

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  1. #1 ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG. 
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    Apparently RED has patent protection over a compression scheme for Cinema DNG or something similar and got into a bit of a conflict over Cinema DNG with Blackmagic Design. Rather than get into a full-on stoush, BM dropped CDNG like a poisoned dog and went its own way with BRAW.

    Assuming BM would play ball in re-enabling CDNG in firmware builds which probably it won't, what would be the chances of RED licencing a CDNG compression scheme to individual BM camera owners for a reasonable licence fee?

    Just a thought, a bit of revenue for RED, better options for BM users. I'm okay of course. I have an older home-repaired pre-ban camera.

    Stay safe everyone as best you can over there with this benighted coronial virus getting about. A few of us called it the Wuhan ill but I got told off a while back because China would get offended. It also made it sound like louping ill, a virus which bowls sheep over and us humans are not sheep ( although some calls us sheeple ).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Hart View Post
    Apparently RED has patent protection over a compression scheme for Cinema DNG or something similar and got into a bit of a conflict over Cinema DNG with Blackmagic Design. Rather than get into a full-on stoush, BM dropped CDNG like a poisoned dog and went its own way with BRAW.

    Assuming BM would play ball in re-enabling CDNG in firmware builds which probably it won't, what would be the chances of RED licencing a CDNG compression scheme to individual BM camera owners for a reasonable licence fee?

    Just a thought, a bit of revenue for RED, better options for BM users. I'm okay of course. I have an older home-repaired pre-ban camera.

    Stay safe everyone as best you can over there with this benighted coronial virus getting about. A few of us called it the Wuhan ill but I got told off a while back because China would get offended. It also made it sound like louping ill, a virus which bowls sheep over and us humans are not sheep ( although some calls us sheeple ).
    Some of Red's patents cover internal camera recording of compressed Bayer raw motion data independent of codec for frame rates equal to or above 23fps. There are many Bayer raw data formats. Red does license its technology. Very possibly Prores raw involves some sort of license arrangement with Red given the outcome of the lawsuits between them.
    I think BM dropped CDNG because the processing overhead makes it impractical for direct editing on typical computers that their customers own. Braw is much more efficient.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Hart View Post
    BM dropped CDNG like a poisoned dog and went its own way with BRAW.

    To understand the full picture of Cinema DNG, which is open source, you need to track the core issues. Firstly it was developed by an Adobe lead team, however Adobe has dropped support for Cinema DNG and nobody has been funded to optimize or develop anything further in terms of GPU acceleration or anything like that, which alludes to a good deal of the issues surrounding the codec from a workflow perspective.

    BMD did "the right thing" by developing their own codec because they have control over developing and optimizing it, whether it's truly raw or not. Either way it provides the landscape for a more optimized workflow.

    CDNG will live on, but no company is actually interested in it because there's no direction to profit and only expense really. You might think it has to do with RED and the patent, but when you consider that patent has been around since the mid 2000s and CDNG's lifetime on the market and implementation was during this era, it points to the other issues.
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    Senior Member Rakesh Malik's Avatar
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    The DNG spec includes several compression algorithms, but it also allows for using proprietary compression options. BMD used one of those, or maybe more than one, in its losslessly compressed cDNG, which turned out to be a little frustrating due to the fact that no one else bothered to add support for it, so that made previewing clips in the file browser stop working.

    That part wasn't Black Magic's doing, it was an unfortunate side effect of the fact that no one else was interested in cDNG at the time, and BMD wasn't able to entice anyone else into supporting it in the file browser, but it was inconvenient.

    On the other hand, it lead me to put more time into learning Resolve and later Scratch, which was a fringe benefit.

    Still, I'm glad BMD went with its own raw codec; it's turned out to be a great codec, based on doing a few shoots using a Pocket 4K as a B cam for my Epic-W.
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    David and Richard.


    Thank you for your informative and courteous replies which have cleared a few things up for me.


    Again stay as safe and as well as you can in the face of the virus. We have had it fortunate out here in Oz. However the control measures here really only defer the inevitable. They also keep the thing hopefully under enduring control until somebody gets a vaccine up and running.

    Our national governance is now anxious to get the economy running again. Our PM rather provocatively used the turn of phrase that we must "come out from under the doona". It alludes to childish fears and hiding under the bedcovers waiting for the monster to go away.

    Some of our state governments unilaterally closed state borders and have steadfastly refused to open them on their own local medical advice received. It is setting up a bit of tension between state governments.

    The Federal government is avoiding stirring the pot by conceding state governments need to do as they see fit ( my paraphrase ). Interestingly it has been raised that closure of state borders conflicts with the Australian Constitution, some of which was apparently inspired by your own over there in the US. We do not have a codified bill of rights.

    In the meantime, some of our state governments, which for now have achieved control of the virus spread are progressively relaxing their lockdowns in stages on a try and see basis to enable some businesses to resume.

    Oz is a lucky country but there is a certain responsibility to make our own luck too. By and large people have complied with what in peacetime are draconian controls. Some have also become a little cabin-feverish. Social distancing has been failing at some recreational gathering points.

    Where is all goes for the future is a big question, cross the fingers and hope not to die - not just yet anyway. You are coming into your warm season over there so hopefully you get some respite from the onslaught.

    Cheers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Hart View Post
    David and Richard.


    Thank you for your informative and courteous replies which have cleared a few things up for me.


    Again stay as safe and as well as you can in the face of the virus. We have had it fortunate out here in Oz. However the control measures here really only defer the inevitable. They also keep the thing hopefully under enduring control until somebody gets a vaccine up and running.

    Our national governance is now anxious to get the economy running again. Our PM rather provocatively used the turn of phrase that we must "come out from under the doona". It alludes to childish fears and hiding under the bedcovers waiting for the monster to go away.

    Some of our state governments unilaterally closed state borders and have steadfastly refused to open them on their own local medical advice received. It is setting up a bit of tension between state governments.

    The Federal government is avoiding stirring the pot by conceding state governments need to do as they see fit ( my paraphrase ). Interestingly it has been raised that closure of state borders conflicts with the Australian Constitution, some of which was apparently inspired by your own over there in the US. We do not have a codified bill of rights.

    In the meantime, some of our state governments, which for now have achieved control of the virus spread are progressively relaxing their lockdowns in stages on a try and see basis to enable some businesses to resume.

    Oz is a lucky country but there is a certain responsibility to make our own luck too. By and large people have complied with what in peacetime are draconian controls. Some have also become a little cabin-feverish. Social distancing has been failing at some recreational gathering points.

    Where is all goes for the future is a big question, cross the fingers and hope not to die - not just yet anyway. You are coming into your warm season over there so hopefully you get some respite from the onslaught.

    Cheers.
    Based on infection rates in Asia over their summer, this virus is not seasonal. It won't go away over the summer. The biggest difference will come from everybody wearing masks in public. Compare Hong Kong to New York City, similar population densities but HK citizens universally wear masks. More of them wear surgical masks in public during normal times when there isn't a pandemic than New Yorkers do now. 80% lower infection rate in Hong Kong. The mask doesn't protect you, it protects others from you by restricting the spread of vapor droplets that transport the virus to a few inches instead of feet when you breath out, speak , sneeze or cough. Speaking spreads vapor densities as far as sneezing and coughing do, up to 21 feet under calm indoor conditions.

    In early February I walked into our weekly engineering coordination meeting, six people in a 16 foot by 12 foot room. One of them had the sniffles, but was not coughing or sneezing. Within 3 days all but one of us had been infected with his head cold. Fortunately not COVID-19 but there is a 50% chance it was a corona virus since they cause roughly half of all colds. It was a 30 minute meeting. Proximity without protection is all it takes for one person to infect many.
    Minnesota reopened bars two weekends ago. 162 people at one club were infected with Covid-19 on Saturday night. The problem is that infected people may not exhibit fever or symptoms for days or even weeks, but they can still infect others during this early stage. Protect yourself and protect others. Wear a mask in public.
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  7. #7  
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    David and Rakesh.


    Thank you for your responsive comments.

    In our southern state of Victoria, there has been a cluster build at a meatworks. I undestand this has been a sever probelm in the US such that your supply chain is in difficulty.

    One aged care facility in New South Wales was another cluster with many deaths. the major number of cases came from cruiise ships in New South Wales ( the Ruby Princess ) and in Western Australia ( the Artemia ). Ruby Princess passengers were turned loose without checks and spread all over the continent. The crew was quarantined aboard ship and eventually it docked for resupply and medical support.

    The Artemia passengers and crew were managed securely from aboard ship with passengers to hotel quarantine with deteriorating patients being moved to hospital care. There were some fatalities from the Artemia. Fortunately, we have not had known community transmission within Western Australia.

    The State borders for Western Australia, South Australia, Queensland, Northern Territory, Victoria and Tasmania remain closed. Within Western Australia, the largest state in area, closed regional borders have been relaxed some and incremental relaxation of the lockdown is being tried.

    The place is relatively safe and required a two weeks quarantine of all newcomers and repatriates from overseas in hotels or Rottnest Island resort accomodation. Suppression of the infection has been better than had been expected.

    There have been enquiries regarding some motion picture production moving here when the regions are opened up and lockdown is relaxed in its next stage.
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