Thread: Red sensors have industry leading DR without dual gain, so I have to ask...

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  1. #1 Red sensors have industry leading DR without dual gain, so I have to ask... 
    Senior Member Karim D. Ghantous's Avatar
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    Why does Red not implement dual gain? My guess, if I had to have one, would be that dual gain only gives you an extra couple of stops, and Red decided that it wasn't worth it. I can't think of any artefacts that would result, though.
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    Member Nick Vera's Avatar
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    It would have to be a lower resolution sensor. I agree, it would be great if Red made a model focused on this tech. Due to demand for low-light they created the Gemini. So if there is enough demand and R&D costs would be low enough, maybe it is something they would be able to focus on. But I'm sure they hire firms to figure out what should be their priorities.
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    Senior Member Jeffery Anderson's Avatar
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    They had a mode on the original DSMC1 Epic for HDRx
    https://www.red.com/red-101/hdrx-hig...ic-range-video

    could be patented, too much data rate... it's not RAW?

    they do say, with the dual gain, the loss in resolution from debayering is offset and you can use a 4K sensor to finish in 4K image
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    Senior Member Patrick Tresch's Avatar
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    HDRx is still implemented in all their cameras since DSMC1 and they are basically 2 takes for each frame made within the "360c" of the shutter. Making 2 video tracks compiled within the R3d file.
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    The problem with HDRX is that it’s two exposures back to back through the same pipeline, so to achieve it, the “highlight” frame has a shorter shutter, introducing motion-blur (or lack of) artifacts. Whereas Canon’s DGO and Alexa’s dual read-out are simultaneous streams at different sensitivities from the same sensor (so no motion artifacts/shutter differences), which are then combined to give a healthy boost in DR.

    That being said, when you need HDRX, it’s a blessing. Oh, and use Bjorn’s way of exposing — which is, set your X track *just* under clip, and then let the A-track get clean lows/mids. If you try to set exposure via A track (or even try to cut the difference between the two), you’ll invariably double-up capture useful stops making it less useful.
    Last edited by Mike P.; 05-18-2020 at 12:39 PM.
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    Senior Member Patrick Tresch's Avatar
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    I use HDRx for VFX tracking, as 180c shutter is usually to blured for them to track movements.
    I never had an issue where the DR of the Dragon Weapon was a problem. Usually dynamic latitude is trashed in the color correction suite for creative means.
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    Senior Member Jeffery Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike P. View Post
    The problem with HDRX is that it’s two exposures back to back through the same pipeline, so to achieve it, the “highlight” frame has a shorter shutter, introducing motion-blur (or lack of) artifacts. Whereas Canon’s DGO and Alexa’s dual read-out are simultaneous streams at different sensitivities from the same sensor (so no motion artifacts/shutter differences), which are then combined to give a healthy boost in DR.
    care to offer a guess why doesn't -- or what if, Red offered dual-gain/dual read-out on their cameras' if there would be an improvement?
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  8. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffery Anderson View Post
    care to offer a guess why doesn't -- or what if, Red offered dual-gain/dual read-out on their cameras' if there would be an improvement?
    I don’t think they do it merely because they aren’t designing their hardware that way (it’d probably limit framerate or resolution... though Alexa goes all the way up to 6.5k (Alexa65) using the same architecture).

    If RED did something similar, I’d expect gains like Arri; anecdotally, HDRX with “simple” combine, doesn’t start looking too wonky until you had >=3 stops, so I’d expect a conservative +2 stops in the highlights...

    Speaking of HDRX, I think people who’ve combined the streams themselves (e.g. treated it like HDR photography and processed/combined the streams manually), have gotten better results... but it’s not as simple/easy/fast.
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    Senior Member Jeffery Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike P. View Post
    I don’t think they do it merely because they aren’t designing their hardware that way (it’d probably limit framerate or resolution... though Alexa goes all the way up to 6.5k (Alexa65) using the same architecture).
    Alexa cameras are more expensive(relatively) to Red maybe that because of the readout/processing power inside the brain?

    is the Dual-Gain/Dual-readout the same as dual native ISO where there are different voltages to applied to the sensor to boost the sensitivity of the sensor?
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