Thread: Gemini is basically full frame! A comparison with the new Sony FX9...

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  1. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Morrison View Post
    You're not reading what I wrote.

    Yes the FX9 is a full frame 36mm wide sensor. But it's only 18.9mm tall.

    Gemini is almost 31mm wide, and 18mm tall.

    That slight variance in height means when they shoot HD aspect ratio, they end up being quite similar when Gemini shoots "open gate/full sensor".

    GEMINI OPEN GATE cropped to HD: 30.7mm x 17.2mm
    FX9 6KHD: 33.4mm x 18.8mm.

    That's an 8% difference, a far cry from the 15% you'd expect.
    I appreciate your clarifying but it was not necessary. I understood the first time.

    You are comparing apples and oranges. One sensor cropped with other open gate, where the cropped route is used for UHD delivery 3840 and open gate on Gemini for DCI spec.

    If you are shooting for 16/9 for UHD delivery with Gemini, and want a wider crop then S35, 4800 ("5KHD") crop is a smart choice for proper scaling, which is 28.80x16.20mm, not open gate 5120.

    If you are shooting open gate with Gemini for 16/9 with additional wiggle room in reframing post-shoot and pseudo-stabilization in post, again you want to use frame guides for 4800 and use that crop in post for exact 25% scale to 3840.

    The next proper frame for UHD scale would be 5760 crop ("6KHD"), exact 50% scale.



    What is useful to point out also is that FX9 is not a cinema camera and that on board h.264 codec is not even close to match r3d.
    FX9 can be used for that purpose once you slap an extension unit and raw recorder, in which case size, weight, operability and shooting setups between those two drift off in different directions.
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  2. #12  
    Senior Member Nick Morrison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrvoje Simic View Post
    I appreciate your clarifying but it was not necessary. I understood the first time.

    You are comparing apples and oranges. One sensor cropped with other open gate, where the cropped route is used for UHD delivery 3840 and open gate on Gemini for DCI spec.

    If you are shooting for 16/9 for UHD delivery with Gemini, and want a wider crop then S35, 4800 ("5KHD") crop is a smart choice for proper scaling, which is 28.80x16.20mm, not open gate 5120.

    If you are shooting open gate with Gemini for 16/9 with additional wiggle room in reframing post-shoot and pseudo-stabilization in post, again you want to use frame guides for 4800 and use that crop in post for exact 25% scale to 3840.

    The next proper frame for UHD scale would be 5760 crop ("6KHD"), exact 50% scale.



    What is useful to point out also is that FX9 is not a cinema camera and that on board h.264 codec is not even close to match r3d.
    FX9 can be used for that purpose once you slap a raw recorder, in which case size, weight, operability and shooting setups between those two drift off in different directions.
    Fair enough, all good Hrvoje. I always admire your brain and contributions here. Have a good weekend amigo.
    Nick Morrison
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  3. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Morrison View Post
    Fair enough, all good Hrvoje. I always admire your brain and contributions here. Have a good weekend amigo.
    Thank you, Nick.
    Hat tip back at 'ya for multiple contributions enrichening RU over the years. Have a great Sunday, creative friend...
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  4. #14  
    Senior Member William Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrvoje Simic View Post
    Thank you, Nick.
    Hat tip back at 'ya for multiple contributions enrichening RU over the years. Have a great Sunday, creative friend...
    ... like two cats stroking each other! :))
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  5. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Tresch View Post
    This is a debayer issue. I bet it dissapear if recorded in RAW and debayered in post at full res.
    It's a scaling error. Lots of Sonys i've used have done this. IMHO it's the creation of negative lobes due to sharpening/scaling. Happens a lot in VFX work if you are dealing with high contrast situations. Looks just like this. Don't think it's debayer... (but maybe part of that process)

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  6. #16  
    Senior Member Aaron Lochert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Morrison View Post
    That's an 8% difference, a far cry from the 15% you'd expect.
    I'm going to agree with Hrvoje and say the comparison is a little flawed.

    This whole FF craze stemmed from people shooting on a 5D. So they would actually achieve the full 36mm width when shooting 16:9.

    All I take away from this is that shooting 16:9 content on FX9 does not yield an exact FF image, you end up 3mm short on the horizontal. So to cite a number like "8% difference" conveniently ignores that FX9 is also 8% smaller than FF in that scenario.

    Not like any of this really matters, though. People get caught up on the numbers and Gemini has plenty of merits going for it over FX9. Hrvoje already covered the compressed codec issue. And that weird scaling/debayering/gamut or whatever issue that's going on turns me off as well.

    Me, I'm perfectly happy continually shooting on Helium. It's "basically" a Gemini in size which is "basically" an FX9 which is "basically" FF. ;)
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  7. #17  
    Senior Member Blair S. Paulsen's Avatar
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    Sony has been the king of digital signal processing tech for decades. IMO, they've dug a bit too deep into that well sometimes and created more issues than they're solving. Most apparent is their predilection for over sharpening.

    Cheers - #19
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  8. #18  
    Senior Member Nick Morrison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Lochert View Post
    Me, I'm perfectly happy continually shooting on Helium. It's "basically" a Gemini in size which is "basically" an FX9 which is "basically" FF. ;)
    Point taken. My only point (as you know) is that Gemini's 3mm in extra height over Helium makes it ideal for anamorphic, and when you shoot FF and crop it's actually pretty close to FX9 when it crops down to HD. 8% (Gemini) vs 15% (Helium) isn't that big a difference sure, but worth flagging that's all.

    Both Gemini and Helium are fantastic, and the R3D workflow has a lot going for it, obv.
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  9. #19  
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    Yeah, but it's still ~18% more surface area on the FX9 when both are cropped to 16:9 (and ~22% larger when open gate/full sensor, which is DCI on FX9 whereas Gem would need even more cropping to be DCI). That's quite substantial. Even anamorphic the FX9 has the edge, as it's 18.8/3168pix (though it doesn't currently have an ana mode, so you'd have to crop manually).

    OH, and the FX9 is also half the price and has a boatload more features... And has everything built-in (Variable ND, WiFi, AF, XLR, etc etc). One 98wh lasts over 3 hours. And it does better in low-light (e.g. LLISO4000 vs 3200 of Gem). Did I mention it's half the price?
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  10. #20  
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    Off the cuff, I'm still surprised how much Venice-ness Sony put in the FX9 in terms of features/sensor/colour/etc., while still being priced as an FS7 successor (which owner/ops should appreciate). It's kind of why downplaying it's sensor size is almost moot; even if they were the same size sensor (FX9 was "only" ~APSH like Gemini), the price and feature set delta between the two is quite substantial (and in FX9's favour).

    Sure Gemini is bigger than S35 (as are all RED sensors that are >=5k), but to put it in perspective it's still ~20% surface area and ~5mm off the mark horizontally from FX9's sensor (aka almost the difference between s35 and APSH).
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