Thread: Dual ISO / Low Light performance

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  1. #1 Dual ISO / Low Light performance 
    Senior Member David Grauberger's Avatar
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    What are peopleís thoughts on dual ISO for the Komodo? I havenít seen that listed as a potential feature. I know Gemini has it as do many competitors in the $5k and under field. Personally Iíd love to see it. Though most of my work has been with dragon sensor so any improvement in that area would help. Iíve heard it compares similarly to helium sensor my Jarred but I donít have much experience of helium at higher ISOís

    Thoughts?
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  2. #2  
    Junior Member Farbod Green's Avatar
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    fingers crossed for dual ISO... if you ask me, I'd love to see dual ISO.
    however, based on the statements on RED-101 ( Global & Rolling Shutters section ): "Some global shutter designs can also make sensor photosites less efficient, which can in turn compromise image noise."

    I hope even if there is no dual ISO on Komodo, at least we can get clean image and this Komodo sensor won't be one of those "Some global shutter designs".
    let's see the bright side; I should say (if I'm not mistaken) that Jarred mentioned there will be IPP2 available on Komodo, and as it's been talked about here the IPP2 is brighter almost by 1 stop on Helium sensor compared to Dragon sensor.
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  3. #3  
    Senior Member Nick Morrison's Avatar
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    We don't know if it will have dual ISO.

    But we do know that it handles under-exposure really well, given that Jarred says Komodo has remarkably controlled CMOS smear.

    Cmos smear is one of the reasons my team tries to avoid stressing sensors when we shoot. Yes many cameras are now great in lowlight, but if the scene is high contrast, you'll still get CMOS smear - which can bone you and is unfixable in post.

    So it IS good to know that Komodo may be able to handle 3200 ISO, with a scene that's maybe 3 stops under, and actually capture a bright window peeking through the inky shadows of a dark cabin...without introducing smear everywhere that ruins the shot.

    This may be just as valuable as dual ISO for low light.

    This is the kind of thing that vanilla camera comparisons don't really dive deep into btw
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  4. #4  
    Senior Member Karim D. Ghantous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Morrison View Post

    This is the kind of thing that vanilla camera comparisons don't really dive deep into btw
    Vanilla is a delicious, sophisticated flavour, and is anything but 'standard' or 'plain'. But please, continue.
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  5. #5  
    Senior Member Nick Morrison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karim D. Ghantous View Post
    Vanilla is a delicious, sophisticated flavour, and is anything but 'standard' or 'plain'. But please, continue.
    The kind of thing that chocolate camera tests dont really dive into
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  6. #6  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Hard for me to write about this publicly, but I'm usually right or bloody close to right about this stuff.

    Until we know exactly what Komodo can do, really an unknown. But I'm betting it's pretty decent in low light from what I already know and who's actually shot with it.

    I view sensors sort of like super heroes. Hard to have one super hero with all the powers, but some certainly have "more" than others.

    Komodo's super powers we know of?
    - Small
    - Light
    - 6K S35+ Format
    - Global Shutter
    - Apparently fixed CMOS Smear (this is a miracle)
    - 4K SDI Out
    - REDCODE RAW Internal
    - PDAF Autofocus
    - All inclusive body design, i.e. not the normal modular concept from RED, and for this to stay this small it sort of needs to be.
    - But it also appears to be modular with a recent tease.
    - Is the least expensive RED camera to date.
    - Super easy to adapt to and forward thinking RF Mount

    Equally every system has weaknesses as well, but I won't focus on that here. I think all of what Komodo does alludes to a well thought out and maxed out design ecosystem. Higher FPS likely would require more power, more cooling, likely a much more expensive sensor, and a host of other realities. Komodo has been designed outside the box (from what we would have expected from a RED cam) to exist into a little tiny box basically.


    My strong personal feelings towards Dual ISO in general. It is a technology of the now, not a technology likely of the future. Ever since the Viper and Genesis days I've been actively tracking and occasionally even getting a look at sensor tech that sometimes never makes it's way into a camera (which is a sad face moment sometimes).

    Sensor technology is advancing rapidly in other directions and though everybody knows the term Dual ISO now, I'm betting a fair bit of the next generation sensors from pretty much everybody won't be exploring this tech. Some manufacturers have passed it by entirely.

    I do think it's great for Gemini however and I do actually prefer shooting in the low light mode even on that sensor.

    Strangely my biggest question will be at the end of the day is true low light sensitivity versus our desires as creators. We certainly want cleaner images in dark situations, which will come as sensor tech evolves and DR improves further, but on a pure photographic level I'm curious where it will go. Komodo's DR will likely be in the realm of RED's other offerings, but I think it will be more light senstive and cleaner than Helium. Helium's super power is S35+ 8K 60p and is still technically the highest resolution in relationship to format digital cinema camera out there.

    Monstro is a very good example IMO of direction of style of sensor that not only improves low light performance, but the gains in DR as well as Color are fairly notable over the previous gen. Similar to that jump from Mysterium-X to Dragon (remember all that tungsten and IR stuff we dealt with). All in the past. It's all improving.

    I personally think there's much more interesting sensor technology to explore and there's stuff we know exists that hasn't ended up in a camera yet. Komodo I think is exactly this. While some could have guess a small camera, I don't think anybody was guessing Global Shutter to be a part of something like this.


    Betting Jarred still has a few Komodo surprises up his sleeve. I mean almost weekly we've been getting surprises for a while now. And they've been all good things.

    I will 100% be working with Monstro mainly all year, but Komodo is coming with me and going to work when it drops. Have a few special applications I want to try out with it too that I'll show off when that time comes. It's combined feature set inspires lots of specific things for me.
    Last edited by Phil Holland; 02-26-2020 at 09:50 PM.
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  7. #7  
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    Global shutter without the noise CMOS smear and DR compromises is a major breakthrough in sensor design. That and the first Red sensor with PDAF are probably all we can realistically expect for Komodo. Helium like 15+ stops of DR will be a couple of stops better than most of the low end competition as it is.
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  8. #8  
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    Jarred has also posted a teaser image of Komodo showing the top Display at ISO 5000..
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  9. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos_Crespo View Post
    Jarred has also posted a teaser image of Komodo showing the top Display at ISO 5000..
    That could be within usable range without dual gain ISO.
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  10. #10  
    Senior Member David Grauberger's Avatar
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    Great post Phil. I agree with most of what you said. I like the super power analogy. Of course we all want a camera that can do it all. But thatís not realistic to actual constraints of size, price, power draw, etc...

    My biggest punch list for Komodo is size and low light capability. Itís doesnít necessarily have to be dual ISO, and it doesnít need to keep up with Sony a7sii at ridiculously high ISO. For me if I can feel good about 3200-5000 ISO Iíd be in heaven. Super curious about how it fixes the cmos smear.

    Overall Iím very excited about Komodo as most are. Iím willing to be realistic with my hopes and give in the areas of high FPS, large format, etc. I get that everyoneís punch list is different.
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