Thread: The next generation features of cameras

Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 32
  1. #1 The next generation features of cameras 
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts
    4,218
    I've been advocating for a long time that we should look past the current spec requests that keep driving the industry of cinema cameras. I have a hard time imagining DSMC3 with just a bump in Ks and DR, less noise and just a phase-detection AF. We are starting to enter the same kind of stagnation that phones have entered, in which people stop updating every year because there's no point to it. There's no real innovation and people don't need more when there's nothing more to get or need.

    We need some change in the philosophy of cinema cameras. Since so much today is driven by post-manipulation and VFX enhancements, even for projects that don't have a focus on VFX specific shots, we need some innovation in how we view what our cameras can do. I would trade away a lot of past years innovation in cinema cameras for the ability to have in-camera stabilization metadata that actually exists within the RAW file settings in post. The same goes for 3D position camera tracking data that gets rid of tedious camera tracking in post.

    The next company that actually puts things like these into their next lineup of high-end cinema cameras will win first prize as the top brand for cinema cameras. And I'll bet that the next Emmy for technical achievement would be up for grabs for any company that actually puts this into their cinema camera. I don't know why, but when my freakin iPhone can do all of these things for a fraction of the cost of a cinema camera, why is it so impossible to implement all of it into a cinema camera?

    There are plenty who return counter-arguments, but all I hear is excuses that really don't add up. The tech is there, it's not rocket science worth billions of dollars and it's not really that hard to implement when a startup company like SteadXP solves the stabilization problem for a fraction of the cost many propose it would cost. Even with the cameras right now, we could have a stabilization slider in RedCine that utilizes the gyro metadata, but we don't, because of "whatever". I'm amazed that we don't see more requests for things like this. It's like people are just used to doing it the old ways, throwing thousands of dollars on unnecessary post fixes for stuff we could have as automatic features in-camera. And I'm not talking about doing it with boxes and wires and stuff strapped onto the camera. Get it into it, in-camera, as powerful metadata with the necessary tools for it in post.

    The youtube channel Corridor Crew gave a pretty good rundown of the same types of features that I really want to see in future cameras going forward. These are features that I think people don't seem to understand the benefit of until they actually witness them, exclaiming: "why didn't we have this sooner?"

    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
    Red Weapon 6K #00600
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2. #2  
    Senior Member Steve Sherrick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    7,093
    I agree with you that this tech is coming and will be the next big jump. Usually, these kinds of innovations happen when the industry plateaus and sales of cameras slow or there is an immediate demand for something, which sometimes happens when big projects need a certain technology to exist to achieve their goals and so they invent it or push others to do so. I wouldn't be surprised if there has been a push for some of the features you mentioned, it just depends on how hard that push is and how much investment is needed to accomplish it. As we know, if it were easy, there would be 20, 30, 40 camera manufacturers making these high end cameras, but there's not and that's because of the investment needed to not only build the products but to build a following and break through, which is of course what RED was able to do.

    I think on the surface, this seems like something RED would be primed to do since their cameras are used a lot on visual effects films and they have a lot of experience now when it comes to pushing boundaries and developing a following. I simply just don't know the economics of their company to know where they currently stand in terms of investment into R&D. Can't imagine that Jarred will stand still. I would expect they are probably already looking into these things to see how they can take advantage of current tech and what is needed to develop things that aren't quite there yet.

    Perhaps in a few years, we'll have a digital cinema camera that will make the current crop of cameras look antiquated. It will be fun to watch the evolution/revolution.
    Steve Sherrick
    Reply With Quote  
     

  3. #3  
    That video with cinema camera experts' "this thing should have what I want because it's 2020 and it's expensive" train of thought is awesome.

    I'm still waiting for a hoverboard.
    And it's 2020. And still nothing. They shoulda coulda made it by now. I mean really. Lame.
    Analog > Apollo wooden handgrip http://omeneo.com
    Digital > Primers - professional image transformation tools http://omeneo.com/primers

    imdb


    "Como delfines en el fondo del oceano
    volamos por el universo incentivados por la esperanza"

    "L'esperanza", Sven Väth
    "It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards"
    Jung/ Carol
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #4  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    11,527
    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    "why didn't we have this sooner?"
    I like those guys as a former and moderately current VFX dude, so I'll keep some of my thoughts close to the chest as this industry has some interesting tides in the deployment of emerging technologies.

    You are largely looking at very different ecosystems for larger cameras than smaller ones and moderately disposable ones.

    When you are looking at a premium digital cinema camera, you are "ideally" looking for state of the art at the time of invention that will be a solid invention for some time to come. I the good news the pure emphasis is on image quality and general workflow. Bare in mind it takes a year or two and even longer in some cases to develop hardware. Important thing to remember.

    With these smaller cameras often getting replaced on a yearly basis or even quicker they have the power to explore new chips, hardware, and even develop software surrounding them. Those are cameras many are buying on a yearly basis, which ideally you aren't doing for $15K and up premium cameras or we'd all go broke real fast. The market actually doesn't support that concept on premium cameras particularly well outside of super premium, like custom bodies RED makes for premiere filmmakers.

    It's interesting that gyro data is mentioned because RED was way, way, way early to that party. But the tech could be improved greatly and most humans don't know at all how to tap into it. Interestingly that does empower independent filmmakers a great deal and is a great assist to VFX work and fixes. However, I've gone years now with out post stabilizing a shot on features through commercials. Literally not needed. But when you need it you need it.

    4K SDI came out just after DSMC2 was actually finalized and launched and dammit I wish we had it around 2017, but DSMC2 and RED in general seems to be on a 5 year main body product cycle. However, eyeballing Komodo we are seeing RED flex a bit back in their innovative nature, which btw they have been greatly criticized for. We will have a 2lb camera with 6K, 4K out, internal compressed raw, PDAF autofocus, Global Shutter, and that's just what we know now.

    That's insane. And thinking about it broader than that, I though about how crazy an actual Global Shutter PDAF sensor tech was the other day. I mean it's not something everybody is doing at all and certainly new for the cinema space in a camera on the fringe pricing levels of consumer/prosumer land.


    TL;DR - I'm all for all of the new technologies ended up in our gear. Sometimes it takes time, moolah, and development for stuff to get refined even to the point that it's that usable in a system. Like you don't want to integrate something that is sluggish or may not become industry standard. However, some of this stuff is useful for sure. And yeah, audio needs to be looked at harder than ever 2020 and onward. Huge improvements can be made.

    That said, I'm also really looking forward to some of the simple quality of life improvements we'll be getting. Better power consumption, more powerful cameras, speedier menus, faster startup times, etc.

    It's awesome to have all the bells and whistles, but refinement truly can have a massive impact on every day usage.

    Things are bloody fast paced in the general camera technology industry right now. 8K cell phone lands next month. 8K just a few years ago was a alien concept to many.

    Profit breads innovation as well as technological advances over time, then it's just up to real smart minds doing some really hard work, some of which is vastly more difficult than many think. Add into that expanding on the ecosystem to support and develop for certain things and it gets nuts fast. A bit easier for multi-billion dollar companies for sure.


    Heh. Hoverboards. That's so 2000-2010s.



    Which means we're really on pace for dinosaurs soon. Living ones that is. Then again, we'll be in a "good idea or bad idea?" situation real, real quick. I mean, some people die lacing their shoes. We solved that problem long ago and really even before laces, but you know, fashion is fashionable.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
    ________________________________
    phfx.com IMDB
    PHFX | tools

    2X RED Monstro 8K VV Bodies and a lot of things to use with them.

    Data Sheets and Notes:
    Red Weapon/DSMC2
    Red Dragon
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #5  
    Senior Member andrewhake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    587
    "The tech is there" is an absolutely ridiculous statement to make. It is, and never will be, that simple.

    Just because you know of something that is possible does not make it a viable option for actual use in another product. It's endlessly more complicated than that.

    If only making products and tools was as simple as knowing that one things exists, and that another things exists, and just "thinking" then into existence..
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    Heh. Hoverboards. That's so 2000-2010s.

    I like it how the arrow points to the device.
    Otherwise I'd be confused where to look at for the said device.

    I didn't say "desperate flying toolshed contraption" but a hoverboard.
    Marty McFly had it so it should be made by now.
    Because a) I want it and b) it's 2020 and c) DJI and Maglev

    Ya just combine those two in some way so the board fits in my backpack, looks cool and goes anywhere. Boards exist and flying does. The tech is there. So just make it happen already. I mean really.
    /rolls eyes/

    While we're at it, I want smartphone control and autopilot with obstacle avoidance and all that new car/drone stuff, so I can input a route and chat and do selfies and take pics, and download some cool moves, and vlog in V-log while I hover, informing the planet about the achievements of my thought process.
    Analog > Apollo wooden handgrip http://omeneo.com
    Digital > Primers - professional image transformation tools http://omeneo.com/primers

    imdb


    "Como delfines en el fondo del oceano
    volamos por el universo incentivados por la esperanza"

    "L'esperanza", Sven Väth
    "It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards"
    Jung/ Carol
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #7  
    Senior Member Zack Birlew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    California and Las Vegas
    Posts
    923
    I liked that video because it does touch on some pretty cool ideas and concepts that you do scratch your head about and wonder why more manufacturers haven't jumped on board some of these innovations. Really though, we saw the future with the Lytro digital cinema prototype but unless someone does something similar or gets that tech from Google's hands now that they own Lytro, we're stuck with standard imaging. Being able to break up a scene into composite pieces was brilliant to see and effectively eliminated the need for chromakey for only the most particular of effect shots and even then light field recording would help a great deal. I don't know if Google is still developing it or just sitting on it but if it could be licensed then that would be a new level of camera. Of course, barring that, having all the extra metadata and gyroscope mapping would be a useful addition to any cinema camera but as stated already, that stuff gets better and better all the time so it's better to have external devices or modular add-ons that can be replaced with newer versions as time goes on and they get better and better but without having to replace the camera. I would like to see RED advance further, how, I'm not sure, but I would caution that they've seen what going after pure resolution alone led to and how successful Gemini has been and how difficult shaking off Arri's color science still is. I'm sure they'll be able to get to 8K again but with Gemini's low light capabilities added in for revision and I'm sure they'll be able to jump to 12, 14, or even 16K in the not too distant future since they've reached 8K already.

    I suppose a change of stance would be nice as the modular concept should never go away but crippling cameras with lower spec HDMI for instance or limiting media options shouldn't be the case anymore, even if it comes at the cost of features and yes, quality. Open the camera platform up, let people experiment, use the cameras however they may want to, even if it's just getting 4K/6K/8K Prores or even Prores RAW with their Atomos recorders and the like, at least to start and even as backup later down the line if that's the case. My RED One MX is so closed off and dependent on the availability of RED 1.8" SSDs and RED Compact Flash cards being available and operational that it's tough to want to use it more often than I do for fear of wearing down the drives let alone the SSD module itself. Yet I can just turn on my Sony A7S or Blackmagic Pocket 4K and record onto whatever's available basically, even my Atomos Shogun. Making the cameras easier to use is another matter as well, I know everybody is in love with LUTs, LOG modes, and using all the zebra functions they can but those just seem to counter the whole point of capturing images the way we see them or at least getting close enough to do that as has been done since the beginning of photography. If someone can't tell if they're clipping highlights too much or dropping down into the shadows more than they should with all the great monitoring tech we have now then alleviating that is not only up to a matter of constantly developing technique and gaining experience but is also a key point for innovation with digital cameras. If nothing else, we need to aim for HDR or full multi-exposure recording methods beyond basic RAW, or in this case, REDCODE, so that proper exposure is a thing of the past and this goes for any camera whether it's for stills or even a tiny Gopro. One other thing that bugged me about my RED One MX is why I couldn't change my mind about aspect ratio later on as I film in 4K 16:9 HD for most things but I have all this look around room according to the monitor with look around enabled, why not record the whole sensor image anyway in the background and at least give me that option later on in case we decide to go 2:35.1 or even just to have the extra room if the composition is off or if we needed more image area for an effect like a digital camera shake? That seems like a problem that shouldn't be there for such high end camera systems in the first place, especially since they're all very data intensive as it is. All in all, there's certainly a lot of things that could be done to make cameras better but ultimately it comes down to choice and being able to make the most of what your chosen camera can be and for manufacturers to push past that constant cycle of trickle down tech or stopgap limitations, it's time to innovate and move beyond what we've become used to, much like when RED burst the HD bubble and pushed the industry to 4K.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #8  
    Senior Member Kwan Khan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,761
    Thanks for sharing...
    No, I do not RENT MY GEARS... - NYC (Times Square)

    EPIC-D with 9" touch, 4 RAVENs, RPP, Sigma 18-35 PL, Motion Mount, VF/RED-rock wireless FF, Pana 17", JVC 20", Seadicam with SEGWAY, Letus 4-Axis with L'Aigle Exoskeleton.

    Trash-Can 12-core Max'd-out) +MBP (Retina), RED Rocket (Sonnet), RAID system (Promise Pegasus II), Adobe Production (CC), FCS2, Resolve 12 with MC Color, 50" 4K Panel
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack Birlew View Post
    Making the cameras easier to use is another matter as well, I know everybody is in love with LUTs, LOG modes, and using all the zebra functions they can but those just seem to counter the whole point of capturing images the way we see them or at least getting close enough to do that as has been done since the beginning of photography. If someone can't tell if they're clipping highlights too much or dropping down into the shadows more than they should with all the great monitoring tech we have now then alleviating that is not only up to a matter of constantly developing technique and gaining experience but is also a key point for innovation with digital cameras.
    No new innovation is necessary for proper exposure.
    Basic camera skills and experience are.

    No camera problem there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zack Birlew View Post
    If nothing else, we need to aim for HDR or full multi-exposure recording methods beyond basic RAW, or in this case, REDCODE, so that proper exposure is a thing of the past
    You want a professional camera which removes the need for learning how to properly expose ?

    Arri had parallel dual gain 10 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zack Birlew View Post
    and this goes for any camera whether it's for stills or even a tiny Gopro. One other thing that bugged me about my RED One MX is why I couldn't change my mind about aspect ratio later on as I film in 4K 16:9 HD for most things but I have all this look around room according to the monitor with look around enabled, why not record the whole sensor image anyway in the background and at least give me that option later on in case we decide to go 2:35.1 or even just to have the extra room if the composition is off or if we needed more image area for an effect like a digital camera shake? That seems like a problem that shouldn't be there for such high end camera systems in the first place, especially since they're all very data intensive as it is.
    There is no problem.

    There are larger crops of the sensor, and OG options. You shoot wider then intended for delivery and crop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zack Birlew View Post
    All in all, there's certainly a lot of things that could be done to make cameras better but ultimately it comes down to choice and being able to make the most of what your chosen camera can be and for manufacturers to push past that constant cycle of trickle down tech or stopgap limitations, it's time to innovate and move beyond what we've become used to, much like when RED burst the HD bubble and pushed the industry to 4K.
    Manufacturers innovate and push cameras already.
    So no problem there neither.
    Analog > Apollo wooden handgrip http://omeneo.com
    Digital > Primers - professional image transformation tools http://omeneo.com/primers

    imdb


    "Como delfines en el fondo del oceano
    volamos por el universo incentivados por la esperanza"

    "L'esperanza", Sven Väth
    "It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards"
    Jung/ Carol
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    The next company that actually puts things like these into their next lineup of high-end cinema cameras will win first prize as the top brand for cinema cameras.

    https://www.arri.com/en/company/about-arri/awards


    https://www.arri.com/en/company/pres...-camera-system


    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    I don't know why, but when my freakin iPhone can do all of these things for a fraction of the cost of a cinema camera, why is it so impossible to implement all of it into a cinema camera?
    Because there are factors like IP, R&D, licencing, time, facilities, OEMs, yields, testing, logistics, quality levels, certification, and a bunch of other stuff in the equation between imagination and tangible outcomes.

    And makers of herd management devices have far greater resources and interest to give you what you want.
    Analog > Apollo wooden handgrip http://omeneo.com
    Digital > Primers - professional image transformation tools http://omeneo.com/primers

    imdb


    "Como delfines en el fondo del oceano
    volamos por el universo incentivados por la esperanza"

    "L'esperanza", Sven Väth
    "It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards"
    Jung/ Carol
    Reply With Quote  
     

Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts