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  1. #6071  
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hastings View Post
    First of all, how do you know that?

    I suspect you don't. There are a lot of accounting ways to assign "cost". Certainly if you assign all of the development costs of sensor, ASICs, etc. and the overhead during a pandemic shutdown to the first few cameras it's easy to make that case - but normally you assign those to the minimum expected sales.

    Isn't Jarred on the record, either on here or one of the Zoom/YouTube streams, as saying they were losing money on each custom color and storm trooper version sold?
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  2. #6072  
    Senior Member Michael Hastings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher A. Bell View Post
    Isn't Jarred on the record, either on here or one of the Zoom/YouTube streams, as saying they were losing money on each custom color and storm trooper version sold?
    I'm definitely not accusing anyone of lying - but maybe of exaggerating the idea that they are losing money by probably adding in a lot of costs that aren't normally associated with that particular product unit - i.e. I suspect they are losing money overall - as are an awful lot of companies right now - not to mention they probably aren't selling a lot of the other cameras right now during the pandemic production slowdown - so assigning the overall loss to those cameras they actually are selling could be reasonable, but I also suspect they are doing a bit of "puffery" (RED has been known for a little bit of hyping over the years - even Mr. Glans talks of some hype just a few posts ago "I was pissed about how things went with Hydrogen, as the hype machine marketing was such hyperbole." ), and I don't think it's unreasonable for people to be a bit confused or annoyed over the whole "Hydrogen was a separate company" thing because that isn't the impression we were given when we ordered it day one.

    "Puffing generally is defined as “exaggerated, vague, or loosely optimistic statements about a company that are deemed so immaterial and unworthy of reliance that they cannot serve as the basis for liability. The difference between a statement of fact and mere puffery rests in the specificity or generality of the claim." Phoenix Payment Solutions, Inc. v. Towner, 2009 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 91978 (D. Ariz. Oct. 2, 2009)"

    So the claim of loss fits the generality concept, and I don't have any problem with it if RED/Jarred may be "puffing" a bit - it's a part of almost every company in America's (including mine) marketing.

    But it seems like a lot of REDusers have little awareness of how the "cost" of manufacturing relates to the selling price, but it is pretty well known (hint 3-4 times those direct costs for this type of product - and that's not me making it up - it is the formula that was given to me many years ago by a SCORE representative - (SCORE is a "resource partner of the U.S. Small Business Administration (SBA)") The formula can be different for products that sell in the millions of units, but it generally holds true for items sold in the hundreds or thousands of units. There's nothing wrong with it - it has been proven over a long time that you need those kinds of gross margins to be profitable at the end of the year.


    --

    ps I really wasn't trying to make it about the cost - my basic point was why not offer the ST "loss leader" units to the Hydrogen people with the $1000 or maybe even a little less discount rather than give that discount to B&H et al.

    And to give some question to how great a "discount" is after three years and the fact you have to spend $5000 on something you may or may not want to get it. And suggesting that there might be another possibly better strategy - in part since there seems to be a lot of confusion of how and when one might get the Hydrogen "discount".

    Rant over - go HEAT.
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  3. #6073  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    Squeezie ft. Gambi - Servis (Clip Officiel)


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    SQUEEZIE





    Leitz cine summilux-c/Kowa anamorphic/ Red Gemini/Red Komodo
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  4. #6074  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hastings View Post
    I'm definitely not accusing anyone of lying - but maybe of exaggerating the idea that they are losing money by probably adding in a lot of costs that aren't normally associated with that particular product unit - i.e. I suspect they are losing money overall - as are an awful lot of companies right now - not to mention they probably aren't selling a lot of the other cameras right now during the pandemic production slowdown - so assigning the overall loss to those cameras they actually are selling could be reasonable, but I also suspect they are doing a bit of "puffery" (RED has been known for a little bit of hyping over the years - even Mr. Glans talks of some hype just a few posts ago "I was pissed about how things went with Hydrogen, as the hype machine marketing was such hyperbole." ), and I don't think it's unreasonable for people to be a bit confused or annoyed over the whole "Hydrogen was a separate company" thing because that isn't the impression we were given when we ordered it day one.

    "Puffing generally is defined as “exaggerated, vague, or loosely optimistic statements about a company that are deemed so immaterial and unworthy of reliance that they cannot serve as the basis for liability. The difference between a statement of fact and mere puffery rests in the specificity or generality of the claim." Phoenix Payment Solutions, Inc. v. Towner, 2009 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 91978 (D. Ariz. Oct. 2, 2009)"

    So the claim of loss fits the generality concept, and I don't have any problem with it if RED/Jarred may be "puffing" a bit - it's a part of almost every company in America's (including mine) marketing.

    But it seems like a lot of REDusers have little awareness of how the "cost" of manufacturing relates to the selling price, but it is pretty well known (hint 3-4 times those direct costs for this type of product - and that's not me making it up - it is the formula that was given to me many years ago by a SCORE representative - (SCORE is a "resource partner of the U.S. Small Business Administration (SBA)") The formula can be different for products that sell in the millions of units, but it generally holds true for items sold in the hundreds or thousands of units. There's nothing wrong with it - it has been proven over a long time that you need those kinds of gross margins to be profitable at the end of the year.


    --

    ps I really wasn't trying to make it about the cost - my basic point was why not offer the ST "loss leader" units to the Hydrogen people with the $1000 or maybe even a little less discount rather than give that discount to B&H et al.

    And to give some question to how great a "discount" is after three years and the fact you have to spend $5000 on something you may or may not want to get it. And suggesting that there might be another possibly better strategy - in part since there seems to be a lot of confusion of how and when one might get the Hydrogen "discount".

    Rant over - go HEAT.
    I think Jarred mentioned the losses associated with the Beta and early ST cameras were the result of paying engineers to hand assemble and QC them. Compared to normal assembly line costs, labor for each unit was much higher. Rush production of short runs of components from suppliers not shut down during the pandemic could have had some impact too.
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  5. #6075  
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    Who in Europe (specially around Austria, Slovenia, Croatia) has one for rent?
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  6. #6076  
    Quote Originally Posted by Uros Zuraj View Post
    Who in Europe (specially around Austria, Slovenia, Croatia) has one for rent?
    Don't know of a single one in Austria yet. That's just me, there's lots of things I don't know, but Austria is kinda small so you usually hear about things often (e.g. first set of Atlas Orions, etc.)...
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  7. #6077  
    Senior Member Bastian Meier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uros Zuraj View Post
    Who in Europe (specially around Austria, Slovenia, Croatia) has one for rent?
    I do know one in Austria already, might be able to set something up for renting as well.
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  8. #6078  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    TEST RED KOMODO 6K FrameXs


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    Download available on the Vimeo page link below
    https://vimeo.com/459057097



    Last edited by rand thompson; 09-17-2020 at 02:49 PM.
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  9. #6079  
    Senior Member Michael Hastings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Rasberry View Post
    I think Jarred mentioned the losses associated with the Beta and early ST cameras were the result of paying engineers to hand assemble and QC them. Compared to normal assembly line costs, labor for each unit was much higher. Rush production of short runs of components from suppliers not shut down during the pandemic could have had some impact too.
    Unless they are hand soldering the tiny components on the circuit boards (not even sure it's possible at those sizes) doesn't seem like that many hours (so cost even at engineer rates). Haven't we seen assembly videos in the past on Epics that only took a few hours. (NAB one year?). I can see that it would add the differential price to the cost but a little skeptical that it pushes it to where it would be a real loss. Nuff said on that question, Ir's not really important. Again my final point was maybe look at other alternatives for the Hydrogen "discount"
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  10. #6080  
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    Do we think red will have a significant amount of Komodos in stock for launch? Or will they sell out really fast?
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