Thread: Resolve IPP2 colour managed issue... ?

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  1. #1 Resolve IPP2 colour managed issue... ? 
    Senior Member Michael Lindsay's Avatar
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    There are more than couple of niggles in Davinci Resolve when working with Red material... I completely accept this is not really anyones fault but rather a product of different approaches not marrying 100% as of yet...

    BUT I'd love to be able to!

    1) use Resolve Colour managed workflow for all my RED projects
    2) not use a LUT to get to Rec709 or (but rather GN's maths in the form of 'IPP2 output mapping')

    now this is possible until I introduce footage that is not Red raw... either Red VFX stuff or other camera rushes. Unfortunately the engaged IPP2 output mapping effects all the footage on the timeline...

    is there a rational explanation for this and is it avoidable without going back to unmanaged or LUTS??

    thank you!!

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  2. #2  
    IMHO i love the fact that the IPP2 processing is applied to all footage on the timeline. I find it easier to match and integrate footage this way - when it is sitting under the same contrast and rolloff curve.

    It may depend on the camera though, so for example

    cDNG flies work wonderfully - because they ignore the input space and are debayered into linear and so long as your raw settings are correct the IPP2 rolloff works wonderfully with them.

    Any VFX work should be delivered back in RWG/LogG10. I do work in Nuke and at the end of the chain put it back to RWG/LogG10. Any viewing LUT i use to work with the footage is just for viewing - it doesn't get baked into the output files. So bring those QT VFX movies in and they work the same as the source RED files - you should be able to flip between before and after footage.

    Any camera file like Slog2 from an A7sII works well so long as you right click on the footage and interpret it correctly, otherwise it would be read in as RWG and you don't want that. But IPP2 the end of the chain works well.

    The key is that any other source needs to be interpreted correctly for Resolve to linearise it internally and therefore that final stage have the IPP2 work done on it. What it won't work so well with would be baked movie formats already into display space, like 709. But if you interpret those correctly I'm my limited experience with those files they work fine.

    IPP2 has some nice contrast and desaturated roll offs - really helps with all footage.

    cheers
    Paul
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  3. #3  
    Senior Member Michael Lindsay's Avatar
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    Thanks for responding...

    IMHO i love the fact that the IPP2 processing is applied to all footage on the timeline. I find it easier to match and integrate footage this way - when it is sitting under the same contrast and rolloff curve.
    If you have a master file (finished) cut in with new rushes this is disastrous... no?

    Any VFX work should be delivered back in RWG/LogG10. I do work in Nuke and at the end of the chain put it back to RWG/LogG10. Any viewing LUT i use to work with the footage is just for viewing - it doesn't get baked into the output files. So bring those QT VFX movies in and they work the same as the source RED files - you should be able to flip between before and after footage.
    ideally but this is not always controllable or possible... and when you bounce out some footage for a designer to do some quick motion GX this is very very unlikely...And what is just ridicules is asking the Designer to export GX from photoshop etc in RWG/LogG10

    IPP2 has some nice contrast and desaturated roll offs - really helps with all footage.
    I agree and it has been fine with some Arri stuff (even A7S was ok)... Phantom 4k was less appropriate but just about ok.

    the bottom line is that is works when it does but sometimes doesn't (program masters etc, Gx from a designer etc... )....

    It is seems it is a bit of a fudge to keep Red guys happy if you read the relevant sections in the latest manual... (there is a whole bit missing which in a manual this size suggests is because it is a fudge)

    If all you do is hermetically sealled RED projects then it is fantastic (but then why even bother with colour managed) and it is fine for most mixed editorial rushes creation... other than that it feel like it is wrong or I am doing something wrong... ;-)
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  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Lindsay View Post
    Thanks for responding...
    If you have a master file (finished) cut in with new rushes this is disastrous... no?
    Yes, in that case that's not going to work. In which case you're better off adding the appropriate nodes as part of a shared node at the end of node tree i would think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Lindsay View Post
    ideally but this is not always controllable or possible... and when you bounce out some footage for a designer to do some quick motion GX this is very very unlikely...And what is just ridicules is asking the Designer to export GX from photoshop etc in RWG/LogG10
    If it's photoshop work then would it not be better to take the assets in (with alpha) and comp in Resolve? Interpret as sRGB and it should be okay - unless you're looking for super saturated RGB colours?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Lindsay View Post
    If all you do is hermetically sealled RED projects then it is fantastic (but then why even bother with colour managed) and it is fine for most mixed editorial rushes creation... other than that it feel like it is wrong or I am doing something wrong... ;-)
    I don't know if it's a fudge or not - it's no different to an ACES workflow where the same ODT is used across all footage - you'd be in the same boat there if you have to work with footage that is display referenced.

    cheers
    Paul
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  5. #5  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    Michael,



    The Color managed settings you are using will give you different looking results.


    Here is a File from Luigi Valtulini. First processed with the settings advised by Peter Chamberlain of Black Magic Designs. And , Your settings


    High Con/ Very Soft used


    Original





    with a lut I made for this specific image for a REDWidegamutRGB/ Log3G10 image, with a curve to reduce overall brightness. This looks the same way as it did in a Non Color Managed REDWidegamutRGB/ Log3G10 project







    Image with your settings along with the lut I made for this specific image for a REDWidegamutRGB/ Log3G10 image, with a curve to reduce overall brightness. It seems it didn't respect either the curve I used to reduce overall brightness or the Very Soft Highlight Roll-off







    And if you are going to use Photoshop for your VFX work, why not make an IPP2 Output Transform Lut that transforms the REDWidegamutRGB/ Log3G10 image into Adobe 1998 and whatever gamma you need?





    I know this all uses a Lut, but its probably what you will have to use atleast in a non Color- Managed project with specific Raw settings for the different camera material you will need.


    But maybe I am misunderstanding what it is that you are asking.
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  6. #6  
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    Have DI workflows been abandoned?

    My normal workflow for mixed source footage in Resolve is to process each source on its own timeline for color managed base corrections and color space conversions, then export each corrected source independently to a master quality DI for editing and finishing. In my case I use Cineform since I’m on a PC. Final grades are done to the DI footage in a uniform project environment after editing.
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  7. #7  
    Senior Member Michael Lindsay's Avatar
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    Hey Rand

    it is best to ignore how timeline colour space is set above as its naming can confuse... I sometimes set it to a log space depending on how I want the tools to work. it could actually be called Tools colour space (I'd prefer this). If you don't engage any tools it will not make any difference to the image no matter how it is set. I didn't realise this for about 2years ;-) and confusedly had it mirror input as I wrongly thought it would limit my footage if I didn't... If I get time later I will go through things more clearly as I think you got the wrong end of this particular stick... the frame grab I made was a little arbitary all I was really talking about was that the red specific output mapping contrast and rolloff curves created by Red are being applied to everything within this workflow... I had assumed that these had the precision of of maths rather than LUTs so I had wanted to use this approach over LUTs at the end. I think this assumption may be wrong but I will test.

    thanks
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  8. #8  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    Thanks Michael for the clarification, and like you said, I think I did get the wrong end of the stick. You know better than anyone else what works best for you and your needs.
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  9. #9  
    Senior Member Michael Lindsay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulcurtis View Post
    Yes, in that case that's not going to work. In which case you're better off adding the appropriate nodes as part of a shared node at the end of node tree i would think.
    Think you are right!

    If it's photoshop work then would it not be better to take the assets in (with alpha) and comp in Resolve? Interpret as sRGB and it should be okay - unless you're looking for super saturated RGB colours?
    That will work if I use a shared node output LUT approach but if I engage the output gamut mapping approach then loads of bright GX will get screwed around with...

    I don't know if it's a fudge or not - it's no different to an ACES workflow where the same ODT is used across all footage - you'd be in the same boat there if you have to work with footage that is display referenced.
    Thanks ... I haven't investigated ACES workflow and I have to admit my knowledge is limited to a tiny bit of the theoretical stuff nothing in practice..
    I suppose I just don't understand why the Gamut and tone mapping Red controls in the colour management section don't just limit themselves to Red footage only... If they did things would make sense to me... but if those same mapping controls are not more precise than the LUTS Red provide then the shared node approach you suggest is actually ideal...


    thanks
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  10. #10  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    Micheal,


    If you do use ACES the "Gamut Mapping" OFX tool can help a lot with Tone Mapping, especially with Red .R3D files



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