Thread: MINILF-MONSTRO thoughts ;)

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  1. #111  
    I guessing DSMC3 sensor will make monstro look old. Likly with intelligent autofocus chip inside. Likly future arri s35 6k will have the same. Those kinds of cameras are more like one year away than 5. So even if monstro is a really great sensor my guess is it will feel a bit old quite soon.
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  2. #112  
    Senior Member luigivaltulini's Avatar
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    Fast shoot outdoor.. for understand denoise ALex amini LF.
    Prores 4k 422hq 1600 iso Monstro, and Mini Lf with and without denoise in camera.

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1SJ...FOcqUbplyXYwEQ
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  3. #113  
    Senior Member luigivaltulini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    I guessing DSMC3 sensor will make monstro look old. Likly with intelligent autofocus chip inside. Likly future arri s35 6k will have the same. Those kinds of cameras are more like one year away than 5. So even if monstro is a really great sensor my guess is it will feel a bit old quite soon.
    you think?
    but maybe I'm a little old..but I think autofocus for most jobs will take little, a good focus puller or you will give a better impression to your movie, change focus by deciding your time and when to do it, be still far from automatism or better to say it would still be too intricate and expensive in terms of programming, perhaps in a particular situation where the scene is always the one then it can make sense. Maybe for you who use the VFX a lot and on a mechanical arm it may make sense.
    I had the FX9 on my hands, fantastic for autofocus, I would say incredible it really follows the person until he gets very close to the lens ... but then after a while you take it off because you want to change when you want ..
    Then maybe just the first time to fail the focus change you will no longer trust it and you will go by hand eheheh
    Better to have then the possibility to insert, through menu, a stabilization on the sensor through metadata. Maybe technically this could already be possible in DMsc3 with Monstro;)
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  4. #114  
    Monstro crop from Luigi's shots.
    800/1600/3200


    https://imgur.com/I6mzACD


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  5. #115  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luigivaltulini View Post
    Fast shoot outdoor.. for understand denoise ALex amini LF.
    Prores 4k 422hq 1600 iso Monstro, and Mini Lf with and without denoise in camera.

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1SJ...FOcqUbplyXYwEQ


    Yeah,

    The blues are enhanced and Blue is the noisiest color channel of the three

    Same Noise reduction and enhancement curve on both

    Monstro



    Alexa

    Last edited by rand thompson; 01-06-2020 at 06:33 PM.
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  6. #116  
    Member David Jean Schweitzer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luigivaltulini View Post
    David,
    I would be worried about not having it;)
    Alexa mini s35 will still last several years, difficult to remove certain productions from this camera even if the market offers better and less noisy cameras and with more detail.
    Even though I am seeing rental prices drop dramatically in recent months, just for the Mini Lf entry.
    Alexa mini Lf will take even more foot when there are larger productions in large format.
    As a camera it is much better than the s35, larger and faster warehouses, spectacular viewfinder, denoise out of the box for those who run in pro, you have a sensor that allows you 2 formats and likely a firmware will arrive for the crop s35 soon, and many other very useful little things.
    Anyway, Arri will have to overcome herself with the next sensor, not easy.





    Ok this for thread:

    This discussion of this thread is interesting, everyone has a good word from the technical side and excellent knowledge from Phil to Hvroje to Björn to Rand to PAt and so for the rest of those present, reduser is known for this and is admirable.
    I feel like saying that sometimes we are like white flies, we understand each other but the rest of the world is not.
    What happens to me personally is sometimes frustrating, especially discussing with people who prefer only a brand because it is more used in cinema, without reason to replicate and sometimes even replicating in front of the facts they remain undeterred about their decision.
    There are many variables today as today, if you take ALexa it is true to be noisier than most cameras now on the market but it is also true that if the product ends up on the media for mobile phones or broadcast transcoded in Xdcam or h265 or h264 all that noise goes for the most part to disappear or better to say no one pays much attention, those who make films probably help themselves with a denoise in color.
    Therefore?!? So ALexa still wins for most of the workflows using proRes, excellent color without too much effort in color or even in lumeters, all gaining time and money and all models use ALev III, that you take an AMira or an Xt or other all the same ..
    For REd, you can do it with Monstro and a gemini or Helium but you must necessarily go in color if you want to try to make them look like.

    *Still difficult to find post production houses that have updated their systems with the latest generation PC or MAc and when you talk about RAw at 8k or 6k they get alarmed because they know that it involves more time and expense. And the 4k prores is blocked at 25fps .. above you have to turn in rAw and then transcode ...
    For me Monstro is a spectacular sensor and I prefer it, but I feel as if it was not taken into account precisely for his heavy workflow or perhaps all these constant changes of sensors and camera bodies and color science in recent years for many to have become a reason for confusion, indeed I would say for almost all those who have not known RED since the beginning.
    For me no, I see it as a step forward every holy day, but hey people out there still don't understand.

    Maybe I'm drastic, but for me RED should block a sensor, maybe Monstro, and make different cuts from s35 to vv with different resolutions but use it in all their models, this for a fairly long time at least 5 years. Doing so would have time to focus on better color science and good worflow.
    I know, someone would tell me that now there is the possibility of having different sensors and colorimetry as it was for the film, but as I see it now out here there is only confusion among people.
    Let's be honest, Monstro as a sensor right now will remain good on the market for at least 5 years with this dynamic resolution, why not put it in all models at different resolutions?
    A camera body called DMsc3 Weapon modular a Ranger a Komodo, all with Monstro with different cuts and all with a sensor with the same dynamics and colorimetry.
    One you can buy Komodo to use it in small spaces or gopro-like drones (without having your heart in your throat that if it falls you lose a lot of money), then you have a Weapon or a Ranger to use as a movie camera A etc. etc.
    But all with the same color and dynamics ..
    It would be a dream for me right now.
    I hope I made myself understood eheheh

    So why not do it? what reasons to stay like now?
    Solid point made, thanks for the explanation!
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  7. #117  
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    +1 Agree 100% on RED focusing on just one Monstro sensor. This is what I've been saying. Focus all the R&D and resources on color science on this one sensor.

    Quote Originally Posted by luigivaltulini View Post
    David,
    I would be worried about not having it;)
    Alexa mini s35 will still last several years, difficult to remove certain productions from this camera even if the market offers better and less noisy cameras and with more detail.
    Even though I am seeing rental prices drop dramatically in recent months, just for the Mini Lf entry.
    Alexa mini Lf will take even more foot when there are larger productions in large format.
    As a camera it is much better than the s35, larger and faster warehouses, spectacular viewfinder, denoise out of the box for those who run in pro, you have a sensor that allows you 2 formats and likely a firmware will arrive for the crop s35 soon, and many other very useful little things.
    Anyway, Arri will have to overcome herself with the next sensor, not easy.





    Ok this for thread:

    This discussion of this thread is interesting, everyone has a good word from the technical side and excellent knowledge from Phil to Hvroje to Björn to Rand to PAt and so for the rest of those present, reduser is known for this and is admirable.
    I feel like saying that sometimes we are like white flies, we understand each other but the rest of the world is not.
    What happens to me personally is sometimes frustrating, especially discussing with people who prefer only a brand because it is more used in cinema, without reason to replicate and sometimes even replicating in front of the facts they remain undeterred about their decision.
    There are many variables today as today, if you take ALexa it is true to be noisier than most cameras now on the market but it is also true that if the product ends up on the media for mobile phones or broadcast transcoded in Xdcam or h265 or h264 all that noise goes for the most part to disappear or better to say no one pays much attention, those who make films probably help themselves with a denoise in color.
    Therefore?!? So ALexa still wins for most of the workflows using proRes, excellent color without too much effort in color or even in lumeters, all gaining time and money and all models use ALev III, that you take an AMira or an Xt or other all the same ..
    For REd, you can do it with Monstro and a gemini or Helium but you must necessarily go in color if you want to try to make them look like.

    *Still difficult to find post production houses that have updated their systems with the latest generation PC or MAc and when you talk about RAw at 8k or 6k they get alarmed because they know that it involves more time and expense. And the 4k prores is blocked at 25fps .. above you have to turn in rAw and then transcode ...
    For me Monstro is a spectacular sensor and I prefer it, but I feel as if it was not taken into account precisely for his heavy workflow or perhaps all these constant changes of sensors and camera bodies and color science in recent years for many to have become a reason for confusion, indeed I would say for almost all those who have not known RED since the beginning.
    For me no, I see it as a step forward every holy day, but hey people out there still don't understand.

    Maybe I'm drastic, but for me RED should block a sensor, maybe Monstro, and make different cuts from s35 to vv with different resolutions but use it in all their models, this for a fairly long time at least 5 years. Doing so would have time to focus on better color science and good worflow.
    I know, someone would tell me that now there is the possibility of having different sensors and colorimetry as it was for the film, but as I see it now out here there is only confusion among people.
    Let's be honest, Monstro as a sensor right now will remain good on the market for at least 5 years with this dynamic resolution, why not put it in all models at different resolutions?
    A camera body called DMsc3 Weapon modular a Ranger a Komodo, all with Monstro with different cuts and all with a sensor with the same dynamics and colorimetry.
    One you can buy Komodo to use it in small spaces or gopro-like drones (without having your heart in your throat that if it falls you lose a lot of money), then you have a Weapon or a Ranger to use as a movie camera A etc. etc.
    But all with the same color and dynamics ..
    It would be a dream for me right now.
    I hope I made myself understood eheheh

    So why not do it? what reasons to stay like now?
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  8. #118  
    Senior Member Sean Keen's Avatar
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    interesting
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  9. #119  
    Senior Member Adrian Jebef's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    As this is getting gloriously heady in dizzying ways, I'll just say simply that no matter what you are doing the camera is always capturing the maximum amount of total dynamic range a scene presents itself for.

    Phil, I respect you but the above is at best a misprint and at worst blatantly false.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hrvoje Simic View Post
    Let's make it less dizzy.

    No matter what you are doing, with RAW acquisition you are always capturing total dynamic range of the sensor,
    where exposure choice effects how you "present" the scene to the sensor,
    which affects how much you are saturating the sensor,
    which affects bit depth used per tonal range,
    which affects the "density" of the negative,
    which affects the image quality and post manipulation.


    Hrvoje nicely corrected and has been making a lot of very good points in this thread. To sum it up: you don't get anything for free (even if you have higher resolution = cleaner blacks).





    A few thoughts...


    1. If a camera manufacturer makes a setting available for 800 ISO then that setting is 800 ISO.

    2. If you need to add a ND filter then said 800 ISO setting isn't really 800 ISO is it?

    3. From what I can gather from this thread in order to make my Monstro perform like an Alexa LF I need to underexpose by one stop and hit my actors with twice the amount of key and fill light.

    4. As Hrvoje has consistently pointed out when you underexpose ANY camera you are still underexposing; you are not correctly-exposing.

    5. Underexposing is what we do in order to get a thin negative. We did this in film; hence thin negative. The late great Harris Savides was a master of the technique. If you are underexposing on purpose in order to get a thick negative, ie robust recorded scene-referenced dynamic range, you're doing something wrong (even if you can't tell).







    I'd just like to thank the posters and commentators on these threads as I find them the most helpful when learning about how current digital cameras work. Hats off.


    Also, Monstro and Alexa LF are both awesome cams. That being said there hasn't been a camera made that has gotten close to the decade old Alexa sensor when it comes to highlight handling and overall captured dynamic range. Even the Venice can't hold a candle to an old Alexa Classic. Note that the reason why we keep talking circles around the Alexa is precisely because it handles the top of the scale so well. That's where all the good stuff is. Shadows are easy to control. Highlights not so much.
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  10. #120  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Jebef View Post
    Phil, I respect you but the above is at best a misprint and at worst blatantly false.
    Okay. I'll expand as I was purely talking about ISO adjustment. No matter what you are giving the sensor in terms of light (iris, shutter speed, ND, and light), no matter what ISO you rate it at, it is capturing the maximum amount of dynamic range it can for a given exposure. That can be crushed, that can be clipped, that can be well exposed, or some fantastical balancing act of the entire range ceiling to floor. But no matter what ISO you choose, you aren't effecting light hitting the sensor, but you are choosing what that light looks like and where you are rating tonality when you are using your own crafted curves or RED's standard workflow.

    If you underexpose it's still capturing the same amount of dynamic range even if it can't see it. Same if you overexpose. If the sensor can't see it, the information is simply not there. You certainly can light and expose with stops to spare which provides a hell of a lot of workable latitude if that is your goal. Not just a digital thing really.

    Though your scene or chosen exposure method may not contain "17+ stops of Dynamic Range", if your camera captures that range it's always capturing it.
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