Thread: MINILF-MONSTRO thoughts ;)

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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobo Martinez View Post
    Björn, just to make it more clear what I said. If you use a light meter, and take a reading in exterior daylight, imagine we get f8 with iso 800. Now, if we change to ISO 1600, the meter would read f11, that is 1 stop less no? now if you put additionally a ND 0.3, that would be a second stop less in which equals to -2stops of light loss to the sensor. Of course you can compensate one top with the aperture, and than you would get minus 1 stop.

    What if you are looking for an f2.5 look with a base of 800 and you need 2 stops of extra highlight detail ( imagine the photometer reads f2.5 using iso 800 and 180 degree? You are using a cooke S4 T2. The setting is exterior sunset, forget about using artificial lighting and bouncing light because its almost a 360 degree shot of a dancer, real world situation.
    Dont chage the fstop of the lens. Add nd .3 and double on iso and then arri and monstro are quite similar and can be intercut very well. Or atleast thats my findings and I think that is what phil mean aswell. or you can go half shutter speed for monstro if you dont want the nd contamination in your testing.

    But yes this discussion goes in circles every time red and arri is compared and for many it seams like it get cryptic when comparing the two with out aligning the DRs of the two sensors. As it is a subjectiv choice what is usable stops, its simply depending on mastring resolution colortemp of the capture and many more things. So its not really possible to say this is mid gray or this is the best exposure level for skintones etc. The only parameter on a sensor that is really ferm is the clipping point and its very exact. Then you have the noise floor which is also exact but its way more of a floating target, as there is so many factors that dictates how close to the bottom you can be, even taste is involved in that end.

    Monstro has both more sensitivity and DR. As I see it its more than a stop better.
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  2. #62  
    Senior Member Jacobo Martinez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Šabović Adis View Post
    The point is that you don't change the lightmeter to 1600, you change the ISO to 1600 - in camera. Or in RCXP, NLE etc. at development stage.

    That would not help bring details in the highlights if you don't compensate with aperture.
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  3. #63  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobo Martinez View Post
    That would not help bring details in the highlights if you don't compensate with aperture.
    Well, after puting .3 ND on it sure would.

    Besides, Bjorn is essentially saying the same...
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  4. #64  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    I ran out of room on the previous page, Monstro 6400 ISO

    it seems that in order to keep the skin from blowing out and to keep the same highlight, midtone and shadow relationship, the shadows begin to crush, which started happening around ISO 3200 in the image on the previous page.






    Last edited by rand thompson; 01-02-2020 at 11:03 PM.
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  5. #65  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    Here's 12800 ISO even more crushed shadows






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  6. #66  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    I solved my problem and I feel like an Idiot for not thinking of it sooner. I forgot that I was using a Hi Con/ Very Soft IPP2 Transform. If I use a medium or Low with Very soft IPP2 Transform, My problem at ISO 12800 should be fixed.


    Ask me again why I love IPP2.... because I do!!


    Here's Low Con/Very Soft with a little Log Shadow added back and a little Saturation at ISO 12800








    Here's Medium Con/Very Soft at ISO 12800.




    Last edited by rand thompson; 01-03-2020 at 01:05 AM.
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  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    it seams like it get cryptic when comparing the two with out aligning the DRs of the two sensors.
    There is no "aligning of the DR of the sensors".

    It's an illusion through misinterpretation of light capture properties.

    Sensor DR is not a sliding scale. It cannot be tuned by the user like a radio with that ISO slider. ISO slider is just a push, it doesn't change sensor DR capture properties, it changes how you get to see what the sensor is able to capture.

    Sensor DR is fixed.
    One sensor captures more of higher intensity light, another more of lower. Always. Expose higher or lower, it doesn't change that. Stand on a ladder or in a ditch, it doesn't matter.
    Sensitivity and saturation capacity are different properties and one advantage cannot substitute the other. Exposure is a light related property, DR in this context sensor's signal intensity capture range. One doesn't affect the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    As it is a subjectiv choice what is usable stops, its simply depending on mastring resolution colortemp of the capture and many more things.
    Exposure is subjective choice, what is tolerable depends on subjective criteria.

    What is usable is fixed and defined by principles of light, sensor, processing and colour science.

    What one thinks is usable is something else and is tunable like that DR in imagination, through propaganda in one direction and education in another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    So its not really possible to say this is mid gray or this is the best exposure level for skintones etc.
    Yes it is.

    Which is why light meters exist.


    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    The only parameter on a sensor that is really ferm is the clipping point and its very exact.
    No, there are many others.

    Also, this is not just about sensor properties but also quantization and image properties.
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  8. #68  
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    Rand,
    TRy files from thread #32 .
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  9. #69  
    Senior Member Audy Erel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrvoje Simic View Post
    There is no "aligning of the DR".

    It's an illusion by misinterpretation of light capture properties.

    DR is not a sliding scale. It cannot be tuned like a radio with that ISO slider. ISO slider is just a push, it doesn't change sensor DR capture properties, it chanes how you see what the sensor captures.

    DR properties are fixed.
    One sensor captures more of higher intensity light, another more of lower. Always. Expose higher or lower, it doesn't change that. Stand on a ladder or in a ditch, it doesn't matter.
    Sensitivity and clipping point are different properties and one advantage can not substitute the other. Exposure is a light related property, DR in this context sensor's signal intensity capture range. One doesn't affect the other...
    So, do you mean Monstro is actually more light sensitive than Mini LF?
    Like the real base ISO of Monstro is 1600?
    Sorry for my ignorance but I'm not a very technical guy..
    I do like the look of higher ISOs with my RED though (Scarlet-W/Dragon).
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  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by Audy Erel View Post
    So, do you mean Monstro is actually more light sensitive than Mini LF?
    Very generally put - yes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Audy Erel View Post
    Like the real base ISO of Monstro is 1600?
    No, that doesn't mean that.

    That means that at the same exposure the sensor will capture lower light intensity detail.

    "Base ISO" is established recommended middle ground for a used gain for optimal signal-to-noise AND density-to-DR-distribution relation.

    The lower it is, the higher chosen exposure based on it, sensor fills more of those buckets, the higher the density when quantized into bits, the richer/thicker the material, you loose highlights sooner.

    The higher it is, the lower the exposure based on it, sensor has less filled buckets, less light gets quantized into bits, so thinner the material and enhanced imperfections, while you capture higher scene light intensity because you reduced the amount of light hitting the sensor.

    Scene DR stays the same, sensor DR properties stay the same in both cases.

    What changes between those routes is:
    a) which part of the luminance range of the scene sensor gets to capture more - because of the chosen exposure
    and
    b) how is that presented for viewing - because of different image transformation (digital gain)


    Quote Originally Posted by Audy Erel View Post
    I do like the look of higher ISOs with my RED though (Scarlet-W/Dragon).
    Higher push can work better when you have more high key and more shot content in the upper range, because those stops carry most of the data. The lower the light intensity of the shot the higher the penalty of a push because you stretch significantly lower amount of data.

    If you use higher "rating" (push) just because, without the need to capture the highest light values, you are just underexposing and loosing bits and enhancing imperfections with zero advantage.

    We had a telecom TVC shot on Monstro and DoP "rated it" (pushed) at 1600 and 3200 for high key exterior shots. It worked nicely.
    It is important to keep in mind that was:
    a) high key lit scene (upper stops more saturated)
    and
    b) mostly sun lit exterior (best quality light)

    So when the DoP deliberately underexposed -1 or -2 the signal was already well saturated , there was no need to dig the underexposed data out of shadows. Everything important for the shot was well lit. No one needed to bring the faces up, they were already up by shaped light.
    It was the DoP who shaped the scene DR distribution by using light and sun bounce to bring up the faces closer to the highlights. Not the ISO slider. His ISO choice was just a different preview to see how it will look when pushed upwards, location of skin tones on a DR scale was a product of his work.

    ...



    To conclude and stress again...


    1) Captured DR distribution is shaped on set by lighting the scene and exposure, it cannot be shaped by a camera setting or in post.

    2) Analog gain is an electronic push and higher analog gain improves the S/N in shadows if the sensor can stand the push. Digital gain is a a push of data, a post-acquisition data manipulation which improves nothing in the image, while it reduces the quality.

    3) This flexibility today is made possible primarily by higher bit depth sampling. Sensors can spit out more bits and more bits can be stretched more with less visible penalties. In 8 bits those ISO values would be much less attractive. More bits can give more lattitude for moving about, they won't change min & max points of the sensor nor principles determining a properly exposed image.

    4) Lower exposure always gives a thinner negative, regardless of sensor, camera maker, colour science, ISO setting, ND, religious beliefs or political orientation.

    5) Whether analog or digital, quality of higher gain push will depend on what you are capturing and how well it is lit.
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