Thread: RED Dynamic Range & Latitude Above and Below 18% Gray

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  1. #1 RED Dynamic Range & Latitude Above and Below 18% Gray 
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    By request as this style of graphic is useful to some.



    Data derived from the Xyla 21, cross referenced with measured patches and metered.

    This chart is focused on DSMC2 Monstro 8K VV, but the general concept applies to the various other cameras and sensor technologies.

    The most interesting thing here is this is all where the camera reports clipping, but with IPP2's Highlight Extension Algorithm you do indeed get more usable information beyond that. I mention that in a note, but these patches reflect full RGB Clip as reported by the camera, scopes, etc.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
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    2X RED Monstro 8K VV Bodies and a lot of things to use with them.

    Data Sheets and Notes:
    Red Weapon/DSMC2
    Red Dragon
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  2. #2  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    Thanks Phil Yet Again!!!
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  3. #3  
    Very helpful! But also helpful to remember that dynamic range of luma values is just a piece of the puzzle. If you are shooting color, and you want accurate colors, at a range of exposures, a different setup is needed. I'm not knocking this graphic at all, which is excellent for the question it answers. I'm just pointing out that there's at least one other very important question that is not easily answered by this graphic.
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    REDuser Sponsor Martin Stevens's Avatar
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    Lovely chart, Phil, as always, but shouldn't the middle gray 1 be a 0 on the chart?

    As in, middle gray cannot be 1 stop above middle gray.
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  5. #5  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Stevens View Post
    Lovely chart, Phil, as always, but shouldn't the middle gray 1 be a 0 on the chart?

    As in, middle gray cannot be 1 stop above middle gray.
    It is one on the chart just like every other chart of this style out there (Arri's, Canon's, etc), they actually just show gradients generated in Photoshop, but they are counting the stop for sure. 0 makes no sense. That is indeed a captured stop of light. The the broad full ISO spread I've noted 18% Gray by the green blob as that generally shows what and where those stops land.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
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    phfx.com IMDB
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    2X RED Monstro 8K VV Bodies and a lot of things to use with them.

    Data Sheets and Notes:
    Red Weapon/DSMC2
    Red Dragon
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  6. #6  
    Senior Member Karim D. Ghantous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    It is one on the chart just like every other chart of this style out there (Arri's, Canon's, etc), they actually just show gradients generated in Photoshop, but they are counting the stop for sure. 0 makes no sense. That is indeed a captured stop of light. The the broad full ISO spread I've noted 18% Gray by the green blob as that generally shows what and where those stops land.
    That makes sense and doesn't make sense at the same time. :-P

    That's crazy DR, BTW. Holy shit. When Dragon was the new thing, it impressed a lot of people. This is a step up for sure.
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    Senior Member AndreeMarkefors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    0 makes no sense.
    It would make perfect sense to me, if you want to count 'over' and 'under' stops in relation to that.

    This way, the same stop also seems to be counted twice: once going up and once going down. You do say 17 stops but adding your numbers above and below gives us 18. Most charts from other manufacturers that I've seen have the over/under add up to the total amount of stops, like this one adding up to 13.1:



    I don't think I remember seeing other manufacturers label their stops this way?

    As long as everything is clearly labelled, I guess...? But it does leave that slight aftertaste of snake oil, which I'm pretty sure isn't your intention.
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  8. #8  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndreeMarkefors View Post
    17 stops but adding your numbers above and below gives us 18.
    RED states "17+ stops" for Monstro. In my tests I've pretty clearly shown that in triple checked measurement a couple times, 3rd time here publicly.

    Where it gets sticky is the various OLPFs and different colored light sources. Some sensors do slightly better at certain color temperatures than others, which hints towards a sensor's native "preferred white balance". Way too deep to go into that here, but it's a subtle thing.

    The additional chaos comes in the form of a good feature from the newer IPP2 Pipeline with the Highlight Extension Algorithm. In reference to the charts shown here, though they are shown clipping in camera, none are actually clipping w/ IPP2 due to this new Algorithm and that's fun to check against w/ the older color science. So yes, in effect you could add 1 anyways to all of this. I've noted about the HEA via a bullet point at the bottom of the graphic.

    Monstro actually can see 19 stops, but those noisiest stops nobody cares about. They are mostly apparent in motion anyways and people already have a good healthy discussion about what a Usable Stop is. Expanding on that depending on your material, how you grade, etc. that all means different things. Even the concept of 18% Gray gets fuzzy for some depending on the final look or even shooting LUT.

    My core hope for a graphic like this is to guide people towards a better understanding of the dynamic range they have access to and how best to use this knowledge towards their exposure methods. This is basically a pretty safe representation actually.

    And yes, the BMD PCC4K chart is counting the 18% Gray stop as well. It's just not being visualized this way.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
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    2X RED Monstro 8K VV Bodies and a lot of things to use with them.

    Data Sheets and Notes:
    Red Weapon/DSMC2
    Red Dragon
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  9. #9  
    Senior Member PatrickFaith's Avatar
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    Super cool, thanks for the work Phil! I really like to protect my darks and use a zone system where I like the grey in the middle of my usable bit depth - so this really helps.
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  10. #10  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karim D. Ghantous View Post
    This is a step up for sure.
    Monstro is special for sure. The improvements in the shadows in particular, color response, and color linearity are all very noticeable.

    I'm a fairly demanding DP and I sort of know what I want more of from every manufacturer out there. After I get my initial rounds of testing done I always have a list of questions I ask manufacturers really. Whenever RED moves onto the more advanced future sensor technologies that more or less nobody is using yet, it will hopefully check off those few other tick boxes many filmmakers have. In the meantime, the current sensor lineup in particular compared to M and MX are pretty advanced and better in every category. Monstro is a tough sensor to go up against still despite being a couple years old now, especially if you know how to get the most from it.


    More expanded stuff on OLPFs while I'm here. It's pretty common to favor super clean images these days, especially if filming for HDR. I meet a lot of people who just use one OLPF and go with it. Typically Standard or Low Light Optimzed OLPFs. Most of the Panavision DXL2 productions to date have been LLO for instance and it's crazy how clean material can be off of Monstro with that "thin" filter.

    My last 4 shoots now have all been STH OLPF shoots at ISO 800-1600, not for everybody, but if you like the texture you get with that. Even even gotten some nice ISO 3200 material w/ Monstro and STH.

    Generally though, I think if cleanliness is a goal, stick with the Standard OLPF. I've mentioned it before, but the transmission difference between the Standard and LLO is about 3%. Pretty subtle when it comes to image noise.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
    ________________________________
    phfx.com IMDB
    PHFX | tools

    2X RED Monstro 8K VV Bodies and a lot of things to use with them.

    Data Sheets and Notes:
    Red Weapon/DSMC2
    Red Dragon
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