Thread: Red for Run and gun in the jungle

Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 37
  1. #1 Red for Run and gun in the jungle 
    Senior Member AndreasOberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Leicestershire, United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,519
    Hi all,
    We may have a longer run and gun project deep in the jungle that will be aired on TV, probably only 1080p. So lots of piranhas chewing at cables etc, hehe.

    I was wondering how suitable our Helium is for especially the run and gun parts. So being on a jeep, crawling in the swamps filming other people when things happen etc. Main concern is actually audio, because I never had very good success in putting audio on the Red and not sure we will have a dedicated audio guy. For interviews we can setup audio properly.

    So what I'm considering is having our Helium ready with 50-1000 lens setup so it will be able to film all animals very well, but maybe have another camera for run and gun with a micro phone on. We could also use the Red for all cases when it is not run and gun, but more scripted. For a quick and easy camera I'm thinking maybe C500 ii, or possibly Sony FX9, even Canon XF705 (but it has such a small sensor and poor codec). But of course I'm not super happy owning too many different types of cameras. If the audio is better in the Ranger setup, they are possibly an option too, but they are quite heavy and not super cheap. We are also 2 cinematographer so this would mean we could have one camera each at all times.

    Its all just speculation now, but some thoughts would be welcome.

    Best,
    Andreas
    Last edited by AndreasOberg; 09-28-2019 at 01:23 PM.
    www.ObergWildlife.com- Natural History Filmmaking
    www.WildlifeRescueMovie.com- Saving the animals of the Rainforest!
    RED DSCM2 8K Helium Movi Pro Gimbal, Inspire 2 X7, OConnor 2560, Canon CN20x50 50-1000mm
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2. #2  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Down the coast. Australia
    Posts
    346
    No reason why you can't get good audio simply into any Red camera.

    The main issue I have with the cameras is start up time. When you are run'n'gun you often are wanting to conserve battery so need to turn off when you think there's a break.
    The problem then is when something needing to be captured pops up un-planned, the cameras just take way to long to fire up and start shooting - it's painful when something is happening which you'd like to capture but you are watching the moment pass as you wait for the camera to boot. This can be heart breaking and/or very embarrassing/frustrating.

    Otherwise everything else is awesome. With there was maybe a simple boot mode - like a light firmware which you could set some basic parameters to have you up and shooting quickly
    le VV Monstro
    and water housing

    www.nalu.com.au
    Reply With Quote  
     

  3. #3  
    Senior Member Patrick Tresch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Switzerland, Lausanne
    Posts
    4,998
    Unless you have an invitation with a tribe or you follow a nature life shooter or a guide you’ll find it to be hard to know what to look for and to focus your attention to film it. I’ve shot a lot in the Amazon with the Epic and Weapon. For animals you can use prerecord but this eats your batteries. I usually take 5x 160wh but you could take more if you travel with other people (2x 160wh/ person in cabin allowed if asked).

    The other problem is that at 9 oclock the forest pumps a lot of humidity in the air and your lens will fog like crazy. Open your lens cases to get them at temp.

    I use 2x 4TB USB3 powered portable disks that do the offload. If you have no electricity, make sure you got a 1600wh genni (Honda or others) and gasoil.

    On Dragon sensor I shoot 6k 10:1 compression.

    Use a black molton to cover your cam for rain. Though it’s not water resistant it makes the job without noise for the sound guy.

    Kippertie ND will help you to get less filter manipulation.

    I usually use 24-35-85 and then a long lens like a 300mm. 1000 if you want to shoot the moon...

    For the sound : take a sound guy. It’s another art form. Or accept a less optimal sound.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #4  
    If you are in a jeep or close to one I see no problem having enough V locks to have camera on and even in pre record all hours of the day when there is light. No other camera can do that properly. Just make sure you got enough batteries and get one of those vlock hotswap modules. Viola camera is always on.

    And get 10 x1tb mags or such. Then if you shot 1:14 or such wich will still look stellar in HD you can roll for days without offloading.


    For audio. I would Just run the internal audio then get a seperate audio recording device. Same there not difficult to get enough big cards so you can easily record full days without pause. Then skip tc and use sync by waveform in resolve or such.


    The above does not cost much and I see it as a way better option than fiddling with dual setups etc. You get raw helium picture quality all the way, prerecord and good sound. The only things needed, V locks extra mags and a of camera sound recorder. And if wanted you can gack the sound recorder onto the camera rig and or add a röde or such on board. But to my experience onboard sound always comes with disturbing sound from camera or operator so better keep it apart. But the onboard sound is great for syncing. If saving meda in date folders it does not take long to sync up months of recordings. Especially if clocks are somewhat in sync and atleast some takes (like first after camera start) has a clear vocal like “forest day five take one” or such.
    Björn Benckert
    Creative Lead & Founder Syndicate Entertainment AB
    +46855524900 www.syndicate.se/axis
    VFX / Flame / Motion capture / Monstro
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #5  
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    10
    Here's some perspective I can offer. I film wildfires...it's a very dynamic, hazardous, and unpredictable environment. For the past few years I've relied on the Sony FS5 with an Odyssey. Served me great...runs for hours on a tiny battery, does very well in adverse conditions, has an internal mic, does brilliant slow-motion. This past fire season, I've been shooting with a Helium and a Gemini. They've proven to be insanely durable even under the most extreme conditions, 150+ degree temperatures, tons of soot and ash, smoke, and numerous direct hits from water-dropping helicopters. Both cameras are still ticking. The audio from the internal mics is surprisingly good. Cameras run for a few hours on 145wh bricks. They have far exceeded my expectations, and the image quality is UNREAL. I used to be a RED pessimist. I used my little FS5 with glee and I took pride in NOT being a RED guy. The images I got were actually quite spectacular...but until you see the RED image for yourself, shooting subject matter you're very familiar with (so you can make a true comparison)...you just don't get how beautiful these cameras are.


    Quote Originally Posted by WesG View Post
    No reason why you can't get good audio simply into any Red camera.

    The main issue I have with the cameras is start up time. When you are run'n'gun you often are wanting to conserve battery so need to turn off when you think there's a break.
    The problem then is when something needing to be captured pops up un-planned, the cameras just take way to long to fire up and start shooting - it's painful when something is happening which you'd like to capture but you are watching the moment pass as you wait for the camera to boot. This can be heart breaking and/or very embarrassing/frustrating.

    Otherwise everything else is awesome. With there was maybe a simple boot mode - like a light firmware which you could set some basic parameters to have you up and shooting quickly
    Respectfully, I feel that boot time isn't the problem. DSMC2 cameras take 44 seconds from power button to recording. It can certainly seem like an eternity if you're behind the 8-ball, but I think people overplay how long it takes to fire up. It certainly hasn't been much of a problem for me in the field. We've ALL missed shots while our cameras are powering up, and I can't say that I've missed any more with the RED than I have with an FS5 or FS7. But I can tell you how many shots the RED raw image has SAVED for me, and nobody seems to take this into account. I've missed one shot with my Helium while waiting on boot. Yes, it was frustrating, but the reality is, if you have good situational awareness, and you're a professional, you mostly know when your camera should be on and ready to rock, and things shouldn't be so surprising that a half a minute of boot time is a dealbreaker. Where dynamic wildlife filming really surprises you and bites you in the bum is when your camera is already on...and the exposure changes. I'm recovering at least 20% (and that's conservative) of the shots I used to lose due to exposure problems that would ruin even raw DNG files from the Sony. If you're shooting X-AVC, forget it. So keep that in mind.

    I'm also salvaging shots with the extra resolution I get in the Helium...lots of extra real estate to not only re-frame or stabilize bad shots, but also forego lens changes...you can live wide and punch into the 8K image for close stuff. I have lost FAR more shots during lens swaps than during start-up.

    In my backpack, I have 5 lenses, 4 bricks, 6 TB of mags, water, food, fire shelter, and a radio. That's all I need. I know that if the fire is getting it and I hike deep into the cut, away from my vehicle, I can shoot ALL day with what I have in the pack. I rarely go through 2 bricks in a day. And keep in mind, the fans are going full power at all times because I'm basically always in 120-150 degrees, and sometimes more.

    REDs are super easy to use, they're just different from the prosumer cameras. Once you pick up the few simple habits to change your MO, then these problems that people complain about simply don't become an issue. My RED brick charger is always plugged into my inverter, and when I'm driving, I'm always cycling recharges. I power up the camera before I think I need it. I secure format media before going to shoot, so I never lose time to a card format in the field. These are basic camera principles that everyone should be doing anyway, but the prosumer cameras give you more wiggle room and allow you to get lazy...that's the biggest shift when jumping to REDs....you just need more discipline. Not a bad thing.

    That said, to sum it up, you can take REDs in the wild, no problem. You just need to decide how much you care about the best image quality. If you're finishing at 1080p, any camera you choose will be the right choice. REDs require a little bit more care and support (battery wise), but it's a surprisingly lean codec, and the cameras are very durable, so it's not a dealbreaker. It is REALLY nice to have a Sony camera with built-in NDs that can run for a week on the batteries in your cargo pants, so if you're truly running and gunning in remote areas, I'd lean towards that. If you want the best image quality, it's a no-brainer. I LOVE my FS5, but I have to concede that the color fidelity out of the RED is just unmatched. Throw some variable NDs on your lenses, stay on top of your battery charging game, and a RED will be a rockstar for you even in a brutal environment, believe me. I've beaten the HELL out of mine.

    However, I would consider a Gemini. I started with a Helium because I was skeptical about the image quality of 5K vs 8K, but I've found the Gemini image to be SUPERB, it holds up quite well next to the Helium, can get up to 120FPS at full-format, and the low-light mode comes in SUPER handy, and is tremendous. If you have the resources, get one of each. They're both exceptional weapons to have for different scenarios. I'm tossing back and forth between them all the time.

    Hope that helps, and I wish you SO much fun and safe shooting on your adventure!!!!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #6  
    Senior Member AndreasOberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Leicestershire, United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,519
    Hi guys, thanks for all the good replies. Patrick great tip about the black molton. I think we would bring 4x150wh and then a larger amount of 96Wh. I like to have so many batteries that you can have the camera on most of the day.

    So this would a lot following people working so would not be so much wildlife. We would do wildlife too but that I feel we know how to do fairly well and would not need live audio. I'm more concerned about walking after people and capturing what they are doing live.
    Not sure if there will be a decicated audio guy, maybe sometimes, but probably not the whole project or maybe not at all.

    Is it "doomed" to have the audio on camera? I only tried this with Epic, but quickly abandonded this idea, since you would hear the lens stabilizer, and zooming sound and the fan would be on max almost all the time. But then again broadcast camera seem to have audio all the time have on the camera.

    On our Epic I experienced that the amplifiers were very weak, so the audio into the camera was not loud enough. How is it with the Helium?

    Björn, what recorder would you have. We have a Zoom F8 now, but I do not like the sound much from it. Will probably get a Zaxcom or a Sound Devices. They do add quite a bit of bulk however if you operate both camera and audio at the same time, not to mention complexity.

    Cheers,
    Andreas
    www.ObergWildlife.com- Natural History Filmmaking
    www.WildlifeRescueMovie.com- Saving the animals of the Rainforest!
    RED DSCM2 8K Helium Movi Pro Gimbal, Inspire 2 X7, OConnor 2560, Canon CN20x50 50-1000mm
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #7 Sherpa 
    Senior Member Tom Hamilton's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Port Orange
    Posts
    1,157
    All of the above excellent suggestions, pre-record is definitely your friend.

    For audio there are some good choices on the market, in your case a highly directional mic that rejects off-axis audio from the rear and sides, wind protection options that go a long way to eliminate not just wind but camera movement and handling noise as well, a good shock mount, and a mic that incorporates a high pass filter and/or other electronic noise filtration features.

    As for carrying enough batts/mags/lenses when you’re away from the Jeep, I highly recommend an experienced Sherpa. A good camera assistant can relieve the cinematographer of all kinds of weight other than that dictated by the immediate requirement, keep track of which batt has what charge/which mag is full, provide a second set of eyes to spot action that may go otherwise unnoticed, keep track of the Jeep keys etc etc, a thousand other details not here listed.

    Other than that, get your batteries in position well before the shoot, that is, in country. Get the wrong airline check-in person and you may find yourself stripped of some very essential equipment.
    Dragon 6K 'Red Sea', Helium 8K S35 ‘Safe Passage’
    Gates Deep Weapon
    Hollis PRISM2 Rebreather System
    Red Sea Pictures
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #8  
    Senior Member Robert Hofmeyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    433
    Probably also a good idea to get an onboard LED light and some fast glass - it's pretty dark deep in the jungle.

    Not sure about the 50-1000mm. Do you need the length in the jungle? I'd rather carry a faster, shorter zoom (and make sure you pack a decent macro).

    +1 for a good sherpa
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #9  
    This might sound crazy but latly I used gopro7 as microphone. Best wind cancelation ever and it also work underwater and in all weather conditions. if you mount it on your camera / mattebox / rods or what ever it works great. Put big cards in it and feed it power from camera usb. Works great with voice command "GoPro start recording" etc.

    And yes, compared to other microphones it got the advantage edge of being able to also roll stabilized 4k while picking up its sound. If nothing else that picture is nice to have when syncing, but also, can works as b cam and or rescue missed takes. But yes, you can also roll on low res not to waist media.

    Im no sound guy so those that know better will likely say gopros are shit sound devices and possibly so. But I managed to capture audio that did not get too much complains from the sound studio. And yes it was far better than what I managed to get other times when I tried to handle much more advanced equipement and simply recorded to high or low or not at all. :)

    For vfx it gives a wider les dof image that is coming from the same camera move which is great for tracking etc...especially if using large not so straight anas... :)


    Teddy use it all the time.

    Gopro mic by Björn Benckert, on Flickr
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #10  
    Senior Member Robert Hofmeyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    433
    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    This might sound crazy but latly I used gopro7 as microphone. Best wind cancelation ever and it also work underwater and in all weather conditions. if you mount it on your camera / mattebox / rods or what ever it works great. Put big cards in it and feed it power from camera usb. Works great with voice command "GoPro start recording" etc.

    And yes, compared to other microphones it got the advantage edge of being able to also roll stabilized 4k while picking up its sound. If nothing else that picture is nice to have when syncing, but also, can works as b cam and or rescue missed takes. But yes, you can also roll on low res not to waist media.

    Im no sound guy so those that know better will likely say gopros are shit sound devices and possibly so. But I managed to capture audio that did not get too much complains from the sound studio. And yes it was far better than what I managed to get other times when I tried to handle much more advanced equipement and simply recorded to high or low or not at all. :)

    For vfx it gives a wider les dof image that is coming from the same camera move which is great for tracking etc...especially if using large not so straight anas... :)


    Teddy use it all the time.

    Gopro mic by Björn Benckert, on Flickr
    Interesting Björn. Do you know if there's a way to synchronise start/stop record?
    Reply With Quote  
     

Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts