Thread: RED SHOP CLEARANCE

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  1. #21  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hastings View Post
    Isn’t that what’s happened with every generation?
    If making life complicated for customers is a good businessmodel then yeah.

    But I would rather see them doing DSMC3 in a way that open up for the use of previous side-gear. The whole point of the change from DSMC1 to DSMC2 was to improve the basics of modularity. I would rather see that they keep the support for current modules and side-gear and just change up the basic components.
    Like for example changing the cooling, internal battery and so on. My belief is that the DSMC3 would look closer to the Ranger models.

    What I do like to see though, is improving the cooling system to make it a bit more stable. There are boards and tech today that could easily handle the R3D at high resolution without extreme heat and power drain. Get some smaller nanometer architecture on the processors, use a custom-made water or oil-cooling system that can spread out the heat distribution and make cooling operations more smooth and recording time longer before the camera needs to start cooling during a take. One problem with industrial-grade processors is that they are usually behind in areas like NM architecture, which means that the power drainage and heat is way higher than necessary by current standards. Of course stability is a key factor and previous generation processors have had their time cutting out problems, but if you look at how smaller less expensive systems can handle high resolution footage at this time, it's easy to see that there can be a tremendous improvement to the stability and operation of the cameras.

    I think that rather than keep pushing K-numbers, push framerate and stability of the camera. It's not good when I feel like my Red is on the brink of meltdown or being scared of booting problems whenever I turn it on, but my $ 2100 Canon R feels more stable, reliable and trustworthy for production. There are so many small things that go wrong with Red gear that I feel that the DSMC3 should focus on being the most reliable system on the professional digital cinema market, rather than the one trying to brag about stuff. I want a system that feels like it never has any problems and when my Canon R is more that than my $50 000 system, something's off.

    Here are a few things I think the DSMC3 definitely need:

    - Dual Card slots (instant backup of material)
    - Easily replaceable internal battery (no need to change board (!) in order to change a damn battery that is drained)
    - Innovation in cooling (Linus Tech did a fun video opening a Helium 8K with the idea of water-cooling it, however, the current design does not work for that so instead make a design that make room for that and make it the most reliable cooling system available with larger fans that doesn't sound like a jet engine).
    - Internal wireless video (don't make a proprietary system, just open it up, let the option to use whatever is out there to monitor video through wireless. The ability to use an iPhone/iPad, a professional grade monitor or whatever with a low latency, we're soon in the 2020's, shouldn't be a big deal).
    - Internal wireless focus (already in the ranger, transfer it to DSMC3)
    - Internal ND's (just do it already)
    - Have the basics be a part of the camera (Make it a "start and shoot" camera, rather than having to rig everything up first. Look at the DSLR market, how still photographers handle their gear, it's flipping the camera on and then just start shooting, figure out a faster boot system)

    I would actually say that I don't really care for a new sensor, it's not needed. There are far more important areas of improvement to the system that should be a priority. If a new sensor, focus on faster reading in order to A) make it closer to functioning as a global shutter and B) getting the framerate up to 175 fps in full sensor mode (which is for the most part a ceiling FPS limit that people rarely go over. Do all this and keep as much support for current DSMC2 gear as possible and Red will have a winning camera on their hands.
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  2. #22  
    Senior Member joshua csehak's Avatar
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    I like the idea of the replaceable internal battery. Maybe if there was a small battery, maybe in a side grip... oh wait we had that and got rid of it. (Why, I'll never know, I loved it)

    Cooling, as long as it's no louder than the alexa mini, no one's gonna complain.

    Internal ND, yes please! So much please.

    How are the Red monitors these days? I'm using an old one that's terrible for color/exposure for menus, and a shogun for color/exposure. It'd be cool if I could do the UI on my shogun, or TV logic or on whatever fancy latest one that comes out in the future. I don't need touch screen, I'm happy using the wheel/buttons. I'm probably the only one that wants that though.

    Speaking of, has anyone messed with doing the menus through the sidekick and not having a red monitor? Is that possible?

    I think that's all you really need, frankly. The rest is nice but gravy. The current line is pretty close to perfect. Heck, DSMC1 was pretty close to perfect.
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  3. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Marchant View Post
    Not totally a fair assessment IMHO. DC Power, monitors, EVFs, LCD and sync cables, lens mounts - all carried over from one generation to another without too much drama.
    This. And to be fair to RED i had 4 Bricks that lasted over 8 years of use!
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  4. #24  
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    What I would really like to see happen is for red to make revisions and improvements instead of making a whole new camera. Let the thing mature. Incorporate things people need to use it on set more efficiently. When every new camera is a major redesign, nothing ever really gets better, just wrong in a different way.

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  5. #25  
    Senior Member Jeffrey Loewe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Gardner View Post
    What I would really like to see happen is for red to make revisions and improvements instead of making a whole new camera. Let the thing mature. Incorporate things people need to use it on set more efficiently. When every new camera is a major redesign, nothing ever really gets better, just wrong in a different way.

    Nick
    This.

    I thought this was the whole idea of DSMC. In reality they release what 5 sensors every 2-3 years? I think staying near or close to DSMC 2 would be wise for the higher end. Tweak the things that count.
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  6. #26  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Gardner View Post
    What I would really like to see happen is for red to make revisions and improvements instead of making a whole new camera. Let the thing mature. Incorporate things people need to use it on set more efficiently. When every new camera is a major redesign, nothing ever really gets better, just wrong in a different way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey Loewe View Post
    This.

    I thought this was the whole idea of DSMC. In reality they release what 5 sensors every 2-3 years? I think staying near or close to DSMC 2 would be wise for the higher end. Tweak the things that count.

    Well one way to keep RED cameras off of sets in the coming years is to do exactly that.

    I strongly feel things like 4K out and a host of other features are going to be damn near a necessity in the coming years. To which we will need new camera hardware. As to whether it's the same form factor and if we have compatibility with current accessories is another question. But since DSMC2 was created and launched a whole lot of technological advancements have occurred.


    It is interesting RED branched out to the multi-sensor concept. I actually respect the strategy as it sort of is a modern take on film and format size in a digital world.

    Looking at the history, the sensor evolution first came to be with improved image quality.

    Then it expanded to different cuts of the same sensor design.

    Then evolved into different format sizes, resolutions, and "speeds" when it comes to low light sensitivity.


    I've said it before, but RED is doing probably the best job of being a film alternative and replacement in these regards. Not just for the format size and resolution relevance, but more or less having things like different speed films come into the logic again from a cinematic standpoint.

    A lot of people don't see it that way and mostly scratch there heads about why so many sensors, but it makes a lot of sense coming to it from an abstract angle.
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  7. #27  
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    Well one way to keep RED cameras off of sets in the coming years is to do exactly that.
    I'd like to point out that basically having the same camera out for the past 10 years hasn't seemed to hurt the Alexa too much.

    Nick

    And I'm not saying not to change stuff, but new electronics tend to get smaller. Put em in the same body. Make an optional 4k out module. My $2k E2 can do 4k out and it's a third the size of the DSMC2 so I doubt the horsepower required takes up much room. Cameras are plateauing. The ones that are going to stand out are the ones that are elgant and well thought out.
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  8. #28  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Gardner View Post
    I'd like to point out that basically having the same camera out for the past 10 years hasn't seemed to hurt the Alexa too much.
    Yet they haven't actually done that if you think about what's being used on jobs at all. And that's not just because I saw an M go for <$1000 a week ago at auction.
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  9. #29  
    Senior Member David J. Buchanan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    Well one way to keep RED cameras off of sets in the coming years is to do exactly that.

    I strongly feel things like 4K out and a host of other features are going to be damn near a necessity in the coming years. To which we will need new camera hardware. As to whether it's the same form factor and if we have compatibility with current accessories is another question. But since DSMC2 was created and launched a whole lot of technological advancements have occurred.


    It is interesting RED branched out to the multi-sensor concept. I actually respect the strategy as it sort of is a modern take on film and format size in a digital world.

    Looking at the history, the sensor evolution first came to be with improved image quality.

    Then it expanded to different cuts of the same sensor design.

    Then evolved into different format sizes, resolutions, and "speeds" when it comes to low light sensitivity.


    I've said it before, but RED is doing probably the best job of being a film alternative and replacement in these regards. Not just for the format size and resolution relevance, but more or less having things like different speed films come into the logic again from a cinematic standpoint.

    A lot of people don't see it that way and mostly scratch there heads about why so many sensors, but it makes a lot of sense coming to it from an abstract angle.
    I completely disagree! Are you saying RED can't make a module with 4k out from SDI? Pshh, doubt they couldn't.

    Also, why would that matter considering it's a cinema camera and not broadcast -- it doesn't even matter anyway.

    4K monitoring sounds nice, but how many productions are running around with 4K director's monitors? They're far and few -- high end, two, if not, three comma commercials.
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  10. #30  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David J. Buchanan View Post
    I completely disagree! Are you saying RED can't make a module with 4k out from SDI? Pshh, doubt they couldn't.

    Also, why would that matter considering it's a cinema camera and not broadcast -- it doesn't even matter anyway.

    4K monitoring sounds nice, but how many productions are running around with 4K director's monitors? They're far and few -- high end, two, if not, three comma commercials.

    It's been explained now years ago as to why DSMC2 doesn't have a 4K out module of some sort. The standard for single cable SDI with 4K actually started to seep into the industry after DSMC2 was designed and released even.

    The initial support that DSMC1 bodies has via the 4K Broadcast Module was a moderate hack in the face of a single cable solution and was a heavy processing power (had a fan and boards to boot) as well as power hungry device to even do 4X 1080p SDI out for 4K.

    You very literally don't have the hardware inside DSMC2 to handle it unfortunately. Which is why there are newer boards inside the Panavision DXL/DXL2 to even do that, and that came a bit later than DSMC2 for sure, not to mention a more power hungry device. This is one of those timeline issues mainly of when things were actually available to implement in the DSMC2 brain versus where things are now. With Komodo supporting 4K SDI through very likely a low power draw and optimized chip as well as things like 6G and even 12G SDI being standardized mainly in 2015/2016 actually after DSMC2's release, if I were a guessing man, DSMC3 will damn well support 4K via SDI. It would be hard to actually sell a new actual digital cinema camera in 2020 without this specific feature.


    Though you don't see the need for it, nearly every streaming service I've dealt within the last calendar year really, really, really wants 4K monitoring on set. Likely do to almost all of these entities pushing for 4K delivery and 4K/4K+ capture on set for all original content (Netflix, Apple TV+, Disney, etc....). This will be clearer around November/December, but for the productions that have already wrapped this year, it's been a huge "want" by some aspects of the industry. I don't think they'll make a mandate that 4K monitoring is required, but it's being asked for a lot right now. Even in the world of features and commercials.

    And this may surprise you, RED cameras are also used in broadcast capacity despite being focused on cinema. The industry is pretty dynamic out there on where and how these cameras are used.
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