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  1. #3031  
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Rasberry View Post
    Jarred said dynamic range is similar to Helium. Except for Monstro all of the DSMC2's are spec'd at 16.5 stops DR.
    I didn't mention it because it might sound antagonistic and I value the leader of a camera company interacting with the users in this way, but I actually had a question about that. Jarred said Komodo will have similar DR to Helium, but also the Gemini has more DR than Komodo, which by default means that Gemini has more DR than Helium. But as you say, Dragon, Helium and Gemini are rated the same by RED everywhere I've seen (see here).

    So I'm confused as to the DR differences between the sensors (Dragon; Helium; Gemini; Monstro and now Komodo). I looked for tests but didn't find anything I thought was definitive....
     

  2. #3032  
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    Hmmmm. Modified for Komodo perhaps?

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  3. #3033  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fahnon Bennett View Post
    I looked for tests but didn't find anything I thought was definitive....
    DxOMark has Helium at 15.2 stops (some of their testing methodologies can be a bit weird, but the DR method seems reasonable). There's really nothing I can find for Gemini either, but maybe it's a bit closer to the claimed 16.5 than Helium? Regardless, if Komodo is even somewhat close 15.2 I don't think anyone could be disappointed, right?
     

  4. #3034  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Genova View Post
    DxOMark has Helium at 15.2 stops (some of their testing methodologies can be a bit weird, but the DR method seems reasonable). There's really nothing I can find for Gemini either, but maybe it's a bit closer to the claimed 16.5 than Helium? Regardless, if Komodo is even somewhat close 15.2 I don't think anyone could be disappointed, right?
    Exactly! What’s not to love about a 15-16 stop global shutter camera with Red DNA at a relatively modest price?
     

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  #3035  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fahnon Bennett View Post
    I didn't mention it because it might sound antagonistic and I value the leader of a camera company interacting with the users in this way, but I actually had a question about that. Jarred said Komodo will have similar DR to Helium, but also the Gemini has more DR than Komodo, which by default means that Gemini has more DR than Helium. But as you say, Dragon, Helium and Gemini are rated the same by RED everywhere I've seen (see here).

    So I'm confused as to the DR differences between the sensors (Dragon; Helium; Gemini; Monstro and now Komodo). I looked for tests but didn't find anything I thought was definitive....
    There are a few different ways to test dynamic range, some more subjective than others. Our engineers use science, I look at actual charts, And marketing uses a combination of both. It is confusing as some of our sensors are better at the top and some are better in the lows and its not as simple as just sliding the middle to offset. Plus there is always some non-linearity in the shadows so step charts can be a bit deceiving, and that non-linearity gets improved over time.

    For example Helium actually has improved a bit over the last couple years from a hardware standpoint by the engineers and Graeme's work continues to squeeze more out of the sensors from a software standpoint, but I reference Helium #0001 so it is a fair worst case not taking improvements into consideration.

    Resolution doesn't technically count in dynamic range , but it actually does if you are oversampling, which is why you can see Monstro still beat out Gemini in the lows even though Monstro is biased to perform better in the highs.

    And then you add the low pass filter, and those variations even same to same on different sensors also effect dynamic range...

    i'm gonna stop there because I realize im probably starting to confuse things even more now :)
     

  6. #3036  
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    Not confusing at all. Bottom line, every iteration of sensor or body has been an improvement in image quality.
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  7. #3037  
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Rasberry View Post
    Exactly! What’s not to love about a 15-16 stop global shutter camera with Red DNA at a relatively modest price?
    Yeah really / "Ditto".

    For a long time globally shuttered sensors have existed but traditionally they have had small sensor sizes and lousy dynamic range and puke awful color science... etc. etc.

    So a reasonably larger sized sensor with very decent DR (+ RED's coding scheme) means you can dig very deep on the Art and Science for pretty much everything that a rolling shutter has been very obstructive to (up to now).

    In other words beautiful imagery that smashes new technical frontiers ? (many practical and technical uses yet "Grown up" image quality(ies) ~ Finally ! .

    + price ??????

    [That may not be interest to everyone but will be interesting to see how various groups / folks decide to run with KOMODO.].
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  8. #3038  
    Senior Member Eric Lange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    There are a few different ways to test dynamic range, some more subjective than others. Our engineers use science, I look at actual charts, And marketing uses a combination of both. It is confusing as some of our sensors are better at the top and some are better in the lows and its not as simple as just sliding the middle to offset. Plus there is always some non-linearity in the shadows so step charts can be a bit deceiving, and that non-linearity gets improved over time.

    For example Helium actually has improved a bit over the last couple years from a hardware standpoint by the engineers and Graeme's work continues to squeeze more out of the sensors from a software standpoint, but I reference Helium #0001 so it is a fair worst case not taking improvements into consideration.

    Resolution doesn't technically count in dynamic range , but it actually does if you are oversampling, which is why you can see Monstro still beat out Gemini in the lows even though Monstro is biased to perform better in the highs.

    And then you add the low pass filter, and those variations even same to same on different sensors also effect dynamic range...

    i'm gonna stop there because I realize im probably starting to confuse things even more now :)
    [Emphasis added].

    " Our engineers use science"

    Lol (I'm glad someone said that).

    And I'm glad i'm not the only one that feels a bit underwhelmed / "Meh" about so called Dxo "scores" as a system or method of "evaluation".

    I'm old school and look very closely at system MTF s / Combined MTFs but at the same time I also understand that Graeme has a major handle on much deeper less obvious aspects of how higher resolution sensors can be made to "interpret" and process "color " vs resolution in a whole host / smorgasbord of different ways. - [ There's a lot of cool sh*t you can do in the frequency domain that a Dxo whatever test is not gonna elucidate.].

    Nice to know that Graeme is still on the "Case" in a hands on way …
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    A 25 year long equipment list / toy box of stuff that's waaaaaaay too long and too bizarre and obscure to mention (even here).

    ~ But the HYDROGENS I have kicking about the place could be "Handy" for a bit of reduced price KOMODO "Action" ;-)
     

  9. #3039  
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    Science is great however if you claim 17+ stops and the image doesn't look that different than the 14+ stop cameras then there's misleading perception in the marketplace. A 3+ stop difference is big, there needs to be proof that it exists because I've not come across too much documentation that says it does.
     

  10. #3040  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Lange View Post
    And I'm glad i'm not the only one that feels a bit underwhelmed / "Meh" about so called Dxo "scores" as a system or method of "evaluation".
    I think you are reading too much into that. If you look at the rest of that sentence, it seems he was just talking about the various ways *Red* looks at things, not criticizing any other organizations. Feel kinda bad for Jarred, he has to be quite careful what he posts and y'all are often still trying to get him in trouble extrapolating things.
     

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