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  1. #1951  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    You can be a critic, that is ok. We have lots of them.

    But saying in a blanket statement that a camera that is half the price shouldn't have double the performance that's not a fair statement... you are talking about one box. And jeeze... using the standard critics go-to argument, our cameras have literally had twice the performance and been half the price for of ARRI cameras for years in almost every spec and they still do just fine... :)
    Nope, that wasn't a fair statement, but it caught attention ;)
    I know the Pocket doesn't have double the performance and it shouldn't have. However, I'm also talking in a future sense, analyzing the track record of improvements from these other companies, it's not unreasonable to speculate the performance of upcoming cameras that might land in the same ballpark price as Komodo just when Komodo is ready for shipment or slightly after its release.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    I get it though.. The Hydrogen Camera module created confusion. This sensor was also going to be used for the Hydrogen module before that ended , which instantly created a ton of expectations and assumptions that crossed over to Komodo since that Hydrogen camera module was specifically targeted for the market you are convinced that Komodo belongs in. And so there is where you are right in pointing the finger, because It automatically inherits those comparisons.
    I think this is what I mean. If Komodo was to be just a complimentary camera it would have had that focus from the get-go. But since the choice was made to evolve this camera into its own thing that can work with Hydrogen and give a discount for Hydrogen users, it not only inherited the "Hydrogen module" status, but has become its own camera release. It's no longer really just a complimentary camera, even if that was the initial idea. Maybe internally at Red, it's handled like that, but officially, it's being talked about as its own thing.

    So I urge you to go full ahead and let it be just that. It's still a complimentary camera, but if Komodo could inherit some of the basic features of a normal DSMC2, in order to have features like HDRx and slightly higher fps for basic high-speed shots and HFR situations, that would make it more than just complimentary, it would make it a primary choice as an A-cam for many who want a smaller camera body as their A-cam.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    BTW.. The frame rate isn't artificially neutered to somehow protect our existing camera lineup as the conspiracy theorists suggest. It's a new technology for us and our sensor team also for the first time integrated PDAF pixels for focus and ultimately image quality and it's size were the main drivers. When I said that you wont buy Komodo for it's frame rates... I meant it.

    But there are so, so many other things that are more important for this camera. So if you ONLY shoot 60fps every day all day and don't want to shoot in 4k to get there then you shouldn't buy a Komodo. Obviously.
    I don't mean that buying Komodo is for framerates, but all the possibilities I mentioned above are valid and powerful creative tools and having the options for HDRx, slight high speed, HFR would make this more than just complimentary, as I think the camera already is at the moment. So my biggest wish for Komodo is that it gets a buff on the framerate side of things, in order to be a fully-fledged small Red camera.

    If that would require a slight increase in price in order to put a bit more processing power into it, I'm all for that. I just want Komodo to grow out of its skin as a complimentary camera and become its own thing instead of being in limbo between a complimentary camera and the Hydrogen module.
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  2. #1952  
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    "
    If that would require a slight increase in price in order to put a bit more processing power into it, I'm all for that. I just want Komodo to grow out of its skin as a complimentary camera and become its own thing instead of being in limbo between a complimentary camera and the Hydrogen module."

    I agree with this. I want to buy a Komodo but I have EW and definitely want DSMC3, so... Can't justify the expense? I have hydrogen also.

    I wish I could offload everything and downgrade to Komodo, good for those with no camera, very very good for them.


    Good to hear it's using new technology for Red!!!!

    This can only be good.

    Don't listen to the haters Jarred. Seeing Jim stressed in the legal videos was not good, and not fair.
     

  3. #1953  
    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    If that would require a slight increase in price in order to put a bit more processing power into it, I'm all for that. I just want Komodo to grow out of its skin as a complimentary camera and become its own thing instead of being in limbo between a complimentary camera and the Hydrogen module.
    Sounds like it may need a lot more than a slight price increase.

    Bringing Komodo into this world is a process that began a long time ago, as Jarred said, before Hydrogen was in the picture.

    Besides being a "baby dragon", Komodo brings a whole set of features that are unique to a Cinema Camera.
    Asking for increased specs before we know what they actually are, may entail more than just a price increase.
    It probably includes an entire redesign of the system that sits behind the sensor...
    New cooling solution, updated power requirements, more (and expensive) sensor-side memory, which will further increase the TDP, outer shell redesign... the list goes on.
    Possibly even the size.
    And something tells me it won't just take a couple of days to bang it all up together, so add at least some months of further delays.
    Komodo definitely feels like it will be creating a segment of it's own.
    For faster fps, maybe look at DSMC2, because DSMC3 is not here just yet.

    As for the "module" part of the equation, think of it like this:
    Komodo is a stand-alone camera that you can use with the built-in controls and a 4K SDI external display for passive monitoring.
    Komodo + a smart device with cabled connection = handling like a more compact DSMC2.
    Komodo + Hydrogen = Cable free handling like a compact DSMC2

    Let me know if I'm off target Jarred.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    ...Baby Dragon, which became Komodo...
    If Komodo is a baby dragon, does that make you the Father of Dragons?
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  4. #1954  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory Karydis View Post
    Sounds like it may need a lot more than a slight price increase.

    Bringing Komodo into this world is a process that began a long time ago, as Jarred said, before Hydrogen was in the picture.

    Besides being a "baby dragon", Komodo brings a whole set of features that are unique to a Cinema Camera.
    Asking for increased specs before we know what they actually are, may entail more than just a price increase.
    It probably includes an entire redesign of the system that sits behind the sensor...
    It won't be triple the price it is supposed to have now. The thing about framerate is that people confuse high framerate with wanting 120 - 300 fps for some Phantom-spec camera, but 50-60 fps is a basic feature of media today. It's not about slow-motion per se, it has more applications than that. 50 fps is required in order to do HDRx at 25 fps. HFR media need around 60 fps. On top of that, the most common slow-motion framerate in narrative work is between 50-60 fps, with numbers higher than that becoming very situation-based. Having that option with HDRx or just shooting in 50-60 fps also helps in VFX where you get more frames for the accurate camera tracking before converting down to half its speed.

    If the speculated price for Komodo is $5000-$6000 I have no problem pushing that to $8000 or $9000 if that means we get 60 fps 6K in this thing. I know that it would require a buff to the internal tech, but I would say its worth it far more than people seem to realize. To say that a buff in framerate is just about slow-motion shooting is missing the point, I'd say that in order for a camera today, especially a Red, to be versatile and as complete for as many as possible, 50-60 fps is a basic feature. And I would argue, as I mentioned to Jarred, that Komodo should be its own thing, not exist by a complimentary philosophy. Let it be the small A-cam for projects that need smaller cameras, which would require having some basic features to make it as complete as possible.

    Of course, Jarred knows best about the capabilities of the sensor and it might be that it's entirely impossible to reach 50 or 60 fps at 6K FF, but I really hope that it gets looked into and taken seriously as a change to buff Komodo in this area. I think we would all agree that making Komodo as complete a camera it can possibly be in that small body would be good for everyone.
    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
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  5. #1955  
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    this thread is very wordy
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  6. #1956  
    Senior Member Robert Hofmeyr's Avatar
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    This was posted yesterday. AFAIK the first confirmed image shot on Komodo. Jarred, any chance of something with a bit more resolution?

    Also, looks like it may be possible to use it without an attached monitor.

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewhake View Post
    Jarred can you pls mount a Komodo to someone's forehead?

    This photo makes the camera look so much smaller than I actually realized: https://www.instagram.com/p/B4BBD03h..._web_copy_link



    Is this THE CRADLE tm in this photo? Very much looking forward to seeing all the little accessories and bits and bobs you guys make for this thing. I would love to see a nice top handle for skate video style filming, and looks like you already have the side handles covered.
     

  7. #1957  
    Senior Member Robert Hofmeyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    It won't be triple the price it is supposed to have now. The thing about framerate is that people confuse high framerate with wanting 120 - 300 fps for some Phantom-spec camera, but 50-60 fps is a basic feature of media today. It's not about slow-motion per se, it has more applications than that. 50 fps is required in order to do HDRx at 25 fps. HFR media need around 60 fps. On top of that, the most common slow-motion framerate in narrative work is between 50-60 fps, with numbers higher than that becoming very situation-based. Having that option with HDRx or just shooting in 50-60 fps also helps in VFX where you get more frames for the accurate camera tracking before converting down to half its speed.

    If the speculated price for Komodo is $5000-$6000 I have no problem pushing that to $8000 or $9000 if that means we get 60 fps 6K in this thing. I know that it would require a buff to the internal tech, but I would say its worth it far more than people seem to realize. To say that a buff in framerate is just about slow-motion shooting is missing the point, I'd say that in order for a camera today, especially a Red, to be versatile and as complete for as many as possible, 50-60 fps is a basic feature. And I would argue, as I mentioned to Jarred, that Komodo should be its own thing, not exist by a complimentary philosophy. Let it be the small A-cam for projects that need smaller cameras, which would require having some basic features to make it as complete as possible.

    Of course, Jarred knows best about the capabilities of the sensor and it might be that it's entirely impossible to reach 50 or 60 fps at 6K FF, but I really hope that it gets looked into and taken seriously as a change to buff Komodo in this area. I think we would all agree that making Komodo as complete a camera it can possibly be in that small body would be good for everyone.
    Cristoffer, if you had to choose between PDAF + global shutter and 6K @ 50fps, what would you choose? I would personally go for the 50fps, but I think I am in the minority.
     

  8. #1958  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Hofmeyr View Post
    Cristoffer, if you had to choose between PDAF + global shutter and 6K @ 50fps, what would you choose? I would personally go for the 50fps, but I think I am in the minority.
    While PDAF and global shutter are two very powerful features, I rarely see the real-world application for this kind of camera. If it's supposed to be complementary to a DSMC2, it's primarily supposed to be aimed at cinema and narrative work. PDAF or any kind of autofocus rarely, if at all, works well in that field since you want control and reliability throughout a shot. If there's just a slight shift in focus you can ruin a take so no one who shoots that would use it over a traditional remote geared focus. And global shutter is really nice, but most sensors in the world have become so good at their rolling shutters that I rarely hear any problems about those things from actual projects and productions.

    So, would I choose 6K at 50 fps over these things? In a heartbeat. What you can achieve with 50-60 fps is more than just slow motion and it's a tool for the end result of your projects that actually has a visible impact on what kind of things you can do with the camera, much more than PDAF and global shutter.

    I don't know if a global shutter locks a sensor to that performance, but maybe a dual-shutter option is possible to implement? Global shutter at normal speeds and the possibility to change to a rolling shutter for increased readout of the sensor? I don't know the specifics of the technology, but I still think it's worth looking into if there's a chance to buff Komodo in this area.
    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
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  9. #1959  
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    It seems evident from Jarred’s comments that Komodo will do 60fps at 4k for sure. So that will cover the broadcast 60fps SDI output and slo-mo. Probably 120fps @ 2k. It also puts it on par with virtually all 4k alternatives in its price range.
    Jarred also mentioned solving a long term problem with CMOS sensors. Might we finally see a global shutter CMOS sensor with high DR?
    I would take that over high frame rates any day.
     

  10. #1960  
    Senior Member Donald MJ Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    Nope, that wasn't a fair statement, but it caught attention ;)
    ... if Komodo could inherit some of the basic features of a normal DSMC2, in order to have features like HDRx and slightly higher fps for basic high-speed shots and HFR situations, that would make it more than just complimentary, it would make it a primary choice as an A-cam for many who want a smaller camera body as their A-cam.

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Dease View Post
    "
    If that would require a slight increase in price in order to ... become its own thing instead of being in limbo between a complimentary camera and the Hydrogen module."
    Now hydrogen is dead RED might have more flexibility with the price - the komodo was already too rich for a lot of hydrogen owners, but to their credit, I felt RED was trying to bridge that gap, trying to make it somewhat affordable so that the H1 furore was reduced.

    As I say, now Hydrogen is RIP, (which I see as a good thing for resources, focus etc) an extra boost to specs and to cost wont rock the hydrogen apple cart cause that cart caught fire and rolled away.
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