Thread: Media Storage-Lacie12Big versus Areca 12 bay? And Raid 5/6 versus Raid10?

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  1. #11  
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    Grayson -
    you have been posting for a LONG time. Have you still not purchased anything ? If you are not technical, and do not want to pay for someone to support you, then do not purchase a QNAP or a Synology. It's that simple.
    We are in a technical business. I don't care if you are Mac, PC, Linux, NAS, etc , etc. This stuff constantly changes - just like editing programs constantly change. If you are not willing to keep studying all this stuff, and are
    not willing to deal with the technical aspects of this, perhaps all of this is not for you. Either you learn how to do this, or you pay someone to help you. Because once you find something that you like and understand, the
    electronics industry will change this on you, and then you will be unhappy again. I mean - just look at Apple APFS. That's our industry - that's what we do for a living. We have to keep up, or find something else to do, to make money.
    bob
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  2. #12  
    Just wanted to stop by and say a little something about some DAS vs. NAS options at the moment, in particular talking about QNAP, Areca and Promise. I’ve been using DAS on my workstations in the form of Promise or Areca Thunderbolt RAIDs or internal setups on PCs, usually with an ARECA RAID controller. Additionally, I’ve had a NAS layer to my network that has evolved over the past few years. The DAS options always give the best performance when it comes to localized workspace storage and we can still share between workstations over the network, but it’s not collaborative workspace and takes more direct fiddling with things on an as-needed basis every time I need to copy or move a project.

    So I have a Promise Pegasus2 R6 that I had been using with a Trashcan Mac Pro and it is now on my iMac Pro, but it’s continuously full and a kludge going from a TB3 to TB2 adapter and then using an optical TB2 cable so it can sit a ways away from me next to a couple printers and other such so I don’t have to listen to its fan right at my desk. Part of me not upgrading until now is that I was waiting for optical TB3 cables... And I will finally take delivery of a 30m Areca optical TB3 cable today! They are semi-officially shipping, kinda, special order from a few vendors like B&H, but hard to actually get.

    I decided I was going to get a new 8-bay Areca and fill it with 12TB Seagate Ironwolf HDDs. But I had also been eyeing the QNAP TVS-872XT NAS with TB3 and 10GE since it launched about a year ago. They’re both the same price... Knowing that I’d take a performance hit, I opted for the QNAP. A performance trade-off that would hopefully still deliver adequate performance for the iMac station while allowing me to simultaneously directly connect my MBP and have the unit accessible over the network. And like setting up any QNAP NAS, if you have not done so before, it’s a bit quirky getting account and access and management going. Not really a big deal if you’re used to setting up web-based management stuff. The RAID itself is easy to configure, no different than setting up a Promise or Areca RAID. It takes FOREVER for the RAID to initialize, especially with all those TB’s. I configured this NAS a week ago and was out of town over the weekend when the RAID finished initializing itself.

    The QNAP is sitting right at my desk at the moment and connected via a 1m TB3 cable to my iMac Pro and the 10GE connector running to my 10G switch in the equipment closet.

    I’m getting less than half the performance out of these HDDs than I should or would had I gone with the Areca TB3 unit. And yet, still over 1100MB/s. I have the IP options turned off for the TB3 interface to boost performance, don’t need to use them as a network interface, just storage access. What really surprised me is that when connecting the MBP and having my son cut something together in FCPX while I did the same on the iMac Pro, it worked great on both systems. All R3D, mostly 6K, some 8K... Then we tried the same while having a PC do a bunch of file transfers to/from over the 10GE... Definite performance hit there, but all still workable. I’m impressed at how well this thing load balances. While not a speed demon like the single-connection TB3 Areca or Promise units, this thing can legit support three users banging on it simultaneously to the tune of 350MB/s+ each and bursting well over that in the highs and lows as it rolls with the requests of each client. I’m thinking about putting in a couple M.2 SSDs in there to see how well the cacheing works. I have a few 512GB and 1TB 970 EVOs handy that would probably do the trick.

    Can’t wait to give the optical TB3 cable a try. 30m is overkill if I place it where the current Promise RAID sits, but long enough where if it works I could relocate the unit to the equipment closet. In that situation I would have to buy a second TB3 optical cable though.. Or I would add a dual 10GE adapter so I could run 20G aggregate into the switch and then connect the MBP via a TB3 to 10GE unit I already own.... Meh. $200 for the 10GE expansion card vs. $800 for the optical TB3 cable. Not that it matters specifically, but I have to use the dual 10GE RJ45 adapter (PCIe v2 x4) rather than their newer/better (PCIe v3 x8) with dual 10GE SFP+. Boneheads at QNAP gave us an X16 and an X4 slot in the unit and the X16 being the one that supports TB3 pass through. They should have given two v3 x8 slots. This NAS can be ordered off-menu with the newer PCIe v3 x8 10GE adapter installed instead of the TB3 card. Which makes it the best price/performance 8-bay unit QNAP offers with multiple 10GE ports.

    Anyway, that was rather long and drawn out for what it was. Just wanted to point out this NAS as an option for those considering TB3 DAS solutions. Depending on your setup, the performance hit may be negated by the ease of connecting multiple systems, all for the same money. I don’t think I would recommend the 4 bay or 6 bay version of this NAS for a performance setup. Not enough cost savings to take the respective 25% and 50% performance and capacity penalties.

    Wish they made a 12-bay or 16-bay version of this unit that included dual TB3 and dual 10GE right out of the box. There is an older version of this unit that provides 4 x 2.5” bays in addition to the 8x 3.5”, but only PCIe v2 slots, slower CPU and no M.2 slots. It does have dual 10GE and quad TB3 out of the box, so it’s still a big seller for them. It’s also double the price.

    I’m also digging the new 24-bay Areca 8050T3 SAN system. Trying to see if I can arrange a demo of one. They’re telling me it far outperforms the Jellyfish for 1/5th the price and can attach 9 TB3 clients simultaneously.

    Oh, and I don’t recommend ExFat as a file system on any large RAID. It’s just not a robust file system. And don’t put all your eggs in one basket with a RAID like this. Sure, there’s redundancy, but I’ve seen too many failures that still result in catastrophic data loss or corruption. Have a good data management plan and backup system in place. 100TB on a single RAID with no backup is just asking for trouble.
    - Jeff Kilgroe
    - Applied Visual Technologies, LLC | RojoMojo
    - Just me and my 8K Monstro VV kicking ass.
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  3. #13  
    The optical Thunderbolt 3 cable (30 meters) is working! That said, I don’t know if I’d buy another unless prices drop by quite a bit. They offer a great solution for distancing peripherals, storage, displays or whatnot from the host system. For storage or network applications they’re superior to 10GE within a limited application and setting, but pointless for larger or ground-up installations with current pricing and availability of 40GE and 100GE solutions. The above setup is my home/office continuously evolving experiment.

    I’d like to see someone make TB3 optical a baluns that could utilize standard fiber patch cables we can already run and terminate as needed. IMO, that makes more sense than trying to sell integrated cables at pre-set 10, 20 and 30 meter lengths.
    - Jeff Kilgroe
    - Applied Visual Technologies, LLC | RojoMojo
    - Just me and my 8K Monstro VV kicking ass.
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  4. #14  
    Senior Member Mark van Coller's Avatar
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    At the moment I am putting together a 12 bay RAID using the Areca SAS Expander System (Areca ARC-4038-12 12-bay 12G SAS Tower JBOD) into an Areca ARC-1883x RAID Controller Card. I am hoping this gives me a certain amount of expandability with the benefit of DAS performance. The other advantage is that you can get 6m long SAS cables which is plenty for me. All this hardware is based on the newer 12 Gb/s architecture. I am hoping this system is stable
    http://www.sasexpanders.com/
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  5. #15  
    The Areca 4038 seems like a reasonable SAS/SATA solution. The dual 8644 ports can supply an aggregate 96Gbps of throughput if run in SAS 12G mode — you have to install SAS 12Gb HDDs or SSDs. Using SATA 6G HDDs gives you 48G bandwidth, still a bit more than Thunderbolt 3. Truth be told, current HDDs can’t sustain 6Gbps I/O anyway, so you’ll probably need another 8 or 12 bay expander on there to saturate your bandwidth. And even then... If you went with SSDs, you could saturate it, but then you’re sacrificing lots of TBs for speed and spending a lot more money.

    Having used the Areca 1883 RAID adapters in several installations, I think you will be pleased. The 4038 enclosure series looks just like their 8050T3 Thunderbolt3 series and seems to be pretty much spec’d out identically but they pipe out the SAS/SATA interface to your external host.

    Which HDDs are you planning to use?

    I’m doing a QNAP NAS install this weekend. I’ll outline it here on the forums as I think it will be of interest to some. It’s for a fellow RED user on a budget who was initially considering a 12-bay Thunderbolt 3 Areca unit, but ultimately went for the 16-bay QNAP so he can serve both a Mac and a PC workstation, maybe a MacBook Pro too.
    - Jeff Kilgroe
    - Applied Visual Technologies, LLC | RojoMojo
    - Just me and my 8K Monstro VV kicking ass.
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  6. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by Misha Engel View Post
    How about a thunderbolt NAS, Thunderbolt and Ethernet in one package https://www.qnap.com/en-us/product/?conditions=2-8
    Misha the qnap thunderbolts are only 10Ge network over tb3 connection. Really good machines but does not deliver the same read/write speeds as a local tb3 raid that is not using a network bus.
    Björn Benckert
    Creative Lead & Founder Syndicate Entertainment AB
    +46855524900 www.syndicate.se/axis
    VFX / Flame / Motion capture / Monstro
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  7. #17  
    The QNAP TVS-x72T3 units allow you to disable the IP/Net functionality of the TB3 connection and gain more performance. That said, it’s still not as fast as a dedicated TB3 DAS unit like the Areca as the QNAP is built to balance and share access vs. single-user performance of the Areca, Promise, etc...

    Ultimately, if someone wants to share between workstations the QNAP performance NAS units are a great option. But I recommend 12-bays or more with dual 10GE or better as the NAS interface to the network. That’s plenty of bandwidth to support 2 to 4 users all simultaneously working in 4K+ unless they’re doing some real intense stuff. In that intense scenario, one has to go back to DAS options for the workstations that need it. Or look to even larger NAS setups with 24+ bays and/ or SSD storage to enable the multi-user throughput they need. But then to serve it up, we have to start looking at 25G, 40G, etc.. interfaces. Dual-port 40GE cards for the PCs or the NAS are right at $400. Not bad considering 10GE cost more than that just a couple years ago. Switching hardware prices are falling fast, but are still out of reach for a lot of indie and small boutique guys. By the time they do the NAS, high speed interface cards, switching hardware, etc.. they could just put an 8-bay Areca TB3 unit on each workstation and call it good. But like I said, prices are falling. This is one of my favorite switches on the market right now, it’s a beast and way better than buying a 24port Netgear piece of junk for the same price.
    - Jeff Kilgroe
    - Applied Visual Technologies, LLC | RojoMojo
    - Just me and my 8K Monstro VV kicking ass.
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  8. #18  
    The qnap we got has 9xhdd and 6xssd where the ssds works as a cache for most used folders. A combo that works quite well / combinds the benefits of fast ssds and big hdd. Have not tried to use the tb3 connection as such as we got 6 machines connected.

    But its fast enough for working with 8k R3D files. But ofcourse lags with larger exr files and such and yes depends how many are pushing/pullibg to it at the sane time.

    The qnap ftp, filesharing and the whole nas layout is really nice. Basically a computer on its own and nice to hook up usb devices and such that can be reached over the network and web etc. So yes the server aspects of it all has benefits. But we also run pegasus r8’s and lacie big’s with local storage for faster read writes for flame / stonefs and such.

    So if working alone on one machine then a lacie big or such works great, but if you work as a team / have the project go trough a few machines then a qnap is great.
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  9. #19  
    Senior Member Mark van Coller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe View Post
    Which HDDs are you planning to use?
    Yes I am afraid I will be putting SATA drives in there. Was planning to go for Iron Wolf Pro
    www.atlanticedgefilms.com
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